Why Vietnam’s moment is happening now.

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

0:00Sense of urgency and opportunity. When opportunity comes knocking at the door, you scratch your heads only for a short time and then you make a decision to jump or not jump. You have to feel it. Is this the moment? Are we at the starting moment? And if we are, then you've got to get your act together fast. Opportunity won't wait for you. And so this sense of now is the moment is really there, but you have to make it happen.

Quang Do

0:30Madame Ninh, thank you so much for being here. It's a beautiful day and I'm very excited to be talking to you. For those who don't know you, how would you introduce yourself?

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

0:42Professionally, I've been an academic, a diplomat, oh, an academic, a diplomat, and now a sociocultural activist or promoter because activist perhaps doesn't convey quite the my mode of action. So perhaps a promoter initiator might a girl and you can if I speak Vietnamese everybody knows I'm from Huế. I need to say it especially to the diaspora overseas Vietnamese who were born abroad or who left long ago. I come from Huế, which is traditional Vietnam. That is where was the seat the last seat of the imperial dynasty. So I tend to tell I'm always a bit provocative. I tell an American official sometimes, the French got it more accurate than you because you always stressed north and south. But you know the geography, the culture, the history of Vietnam. There are three regions in Vietnam.

2:03Geographic sociocultural, historical, his history-wise. So I tease them. I say the French colonials had it more accurate than you. And second, I tend visiting tourists don't hop over my part of Vietnam, the waistline of Vietnam. You know, it gets narrower. Yeah. So the beautiful waistline of Vietnam, don't hop over it. Hanoi, Saigon, Hanoi. You know, there is a center very interesting and attractive, you know, Đà Nẵng, Hội An and then further south. So on. So if you want to engage Vietnam, you have to engage the three socioeconomic and sociocultural regions. Yes. But don't just hop from Hanoi to Saigon, Saigon, Hanoi. Don't forget the waistline of Vietnam. That's what I'm telling visitors, American officials, and other officials sometimes that I meet. Yeah.

Quang Do

3:19Tell us about your upbringing in Huế and you know how did you grow up?

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

3:22Well, in fact I don't really have memories of my first two three years in here. But because by the time I was three, by the time I was three, my family immigrated to Paris. And so I spent my let's say kindergarten and primary school years and primary you know lower sec secondary school years in Paris. By the time my parents decided to take me with us know three four children back to Saigon and I was going to join a senior high.

Quang Do

4:19At what age did you move back?

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

4:2213. 13. But in Paris, I have to tell you this, as I said, my father was of a Mandarin background, you know, from an old traditional family. None of his brothers had studied abroad, you know, imagine in the 20s who would go abroad to study. And but he was the only son in the large traditional family to ask my grandfather to let him go to France to Paris to study. So you see already my father was different from his brothers and where did he go? He went to Sciences Po the school of political very prestigious school of political science in Paris. And then when we all return and there and this is something I have to explain because it tells you about the adaptability of the Vietnamese. But imagine my father who before he when he returned early from his studies in Paris he became a mandarin, [unclear], for the elder generation they will understand what I am referring to he was a provincial you know official under the old the old regime and so when he was over there because he didn't agree with the administration in Saigon on the policies and all that he had to make a living for his family.

6:22So he and my mother opened one of the first at that time there must have been a handful a single handful of Vietnamese restaurants in Paris. Not like now. Yeah. And it was called they called it my parents called it Sông Hương, the Perfume River that flows through and so to make an honest living you know he opened that they open that restaurant but sort of symbolically my dedication to learn. There was a symbolic sign because when we would we were living upstairs of the restaurant and when we would open the windows, what could we see the kids with the kids? There's those young gentlemen from Polytechnique. Opposite was the school called Polytechnique which is supposed to be a semi-military school of engineers but very prestigious like Ivy League. And you know the four of us were watching those young students of Polytechnique doing their morning calisthenics or whatever. And so in other words we were opposite one of the top prestigious you know schools of French higher education. So in other words you see the contrast. So we had to make a living decent honest but so we were also bringing very into to the world very first steps. But at the same time we bathe in the atmosphere of the fifth district of Paris, Paris which was called the Latin Quarter you know all the students and intellectuals you know the intelligentsia they were roaming around that particular district.

8:36So you can see that intellectual life you know came to us and particularly to me very early and very naturally because that was the atmosphere of the a lot of bookshops, lot of schools, a lot of cafe filled with students and professors and others. So this is a kind of meteor, you know, environment that I grew up in. Then by the time I finished junior high, my parents decided to go home. And so we went home. Why did they decide to go home? My father later told me, "You know what? Although you imagine he was a mandarin sense you know without much money but you know a mandarin doesn't rely on money it was it's a different world of the past honor and so on so forth were more important than money so he I asked him one day much later how how and why did you decide to take us home.

9:59Well, that's because of in that little chamber restaurant, you know, it was rather small and so the fumes of the kitchen would even cover the picture was the smell of nước mắm. Of course, he's he has nothing against nước mắm, but you know, he felt we've got to find a sort of better world, different environment for the family, for the kids. So that's when we decided my parents adapted very well from the a background not of wealth but of social status, you see that? And so this adaptability is very unique when you know the background of my father you know it sheds light on how things evolve. So when I when I we moved back I entered senior high I had broken Vietnamese. Yeah. Was I didn't speak quite fluently but I need to share this story that perhaps I have shared a couple of times. I need to I need to repeat it because it flows well with what I my story of how life evolved for us and for me at the very sort of everyday you know level. So the French speaking secondary school was called Marie Curie after the renowned French scientist and it was run by it was a French school with French teachers and when I sort of registered with that school I was asked to to add to my name a French first name.

12:10So this 13-year-old girl having been trained in Cartesian logic in France could not see any logic in having never been asked to take on a French person in France. Coming back to my native place and being asked to take on an additional French name. Yeah. For what reason? You know, Cartesian logic. For what reason? Re reason to make it easy for the French teachers. So that rebellious young lady was already thinking why should why can't they make an effort? So the others all the others on site in Saigon you know accepted they all obediently had a French first name. And I refused but because I couldn't see the logic of it, the justification of it, but I perceive that as being an imposition by the French school to make it easy to the teachers. Yeah. Why not make it easy to the learners?

13:26Because we paid, you know, it was not free schooling. And so it did make sense to me, you know. I mean, France taught me Cartesian logic. Yes. And an inquisitive mind. So I resisted one year. Okay. But this 13 year old girl could not resist more than that. And after one year, I had to adopt a French first name.

Quang Do

13:55So was it Nina?

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

13:56It was no Pascal. Pascal. The name of the French mathematician well known 17th or 18th century and I added an e you know the feminine version of Pascal and it's very easy to pronounce as well but you see I'm emphasizing that story to show that my independence of mind my critical mind started very early and in all directions so it's because I had spent nearly all my early childhood, you know, in France that I would not be critical of things that France or French authorities at different levels could make or take without, you know, having my own opinion. So I that's how it came. I so you can integrate but you should integrate wherever you go with a critical mind right and that critical mind I think is that you have to have a core value you have a set of core values of your own in which of course there is national c cultural identity but also your individual identity and so I showed it I ev evidenced it very early on at age 13, you know.

Quang Do

15:35And tell us about your years in school in Saigon and what happened.

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

15:39So in Saigon after that I was a very good student but next step was graduation from high school. So at first I was very much at the first baccalauréat you know before the total the full graduation I made a mistake a terrible mistake during the exam my teacher who would become my teacher of philosophy yeah in the final class told me you need to switch to the social science, humanities section. You're not made for. So I thought a while and I then decided, well, that's right. I'll take up the social sciences and humanities you know, track. And I think it was an accurate choice. I I'm not really sort of gifted that gifted for exact sciences al although I was a good student at math, physics, chemistry because I'm a good learner but to say that I have a knack or gift for the exact science is inaccurate.

Quang Do

17:06Can you give us the quick year when you did the bac?

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

17:11So baccalauréat was in 1963 64 and at the end of that all my brothers had my elder brother two elder brothers were in Paris studying okay they went overseas and overseas I had a younger brother by one year still in Saigon and my mother sort of tried to urge my father so I mean she was painting my future but not to my taste at all. And I must truthfully acknowledge that my father saved me from that kind of future envisioned by my mother for her. I mean staying on to take a chemistry degree was perfect, you know, for a girl so and so forth. But my father responded that no, she really is a good student. She has she's gifted for that for studies. Let her rejoin her two brothers in Paris to pursue her studies. I was saved by my father, Mandarin father. You see, it's a bit paradoxical. Yeah. I mean because he was the only one I told you who de who asked my grandpa's permission to study in France.

18:32Yeah. So I mean it already showed that we had an independence of mind, openness to the to the rest of the world. So he saved me. Not my mother but my father. So that's how I sort of went to France to pursue my higher education. Yeah.

Quang Do

18:54Tell us about that journey. What did you study and how was your time in France?

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

18:58When I went over there of course I opted for the kind of you know looking to the so-called French Ivy League yes they call and so I wanted to because I was taking up the humanities and social scientist path so I prepared for École normale supérieure very competitive exam. You prepared for two years and then you if you were admitted you would study three more years. So I passed the exam and studied at École normale supérieure and for three years for two years because one year dedicated to the writing of my MA thesis I spent at Cambridge. I chose Cambridge. Well, anyhow, that's my learning path and I graduated with the [unclear] and I was what they called in the top section. I was I think the 16th national nationwide in France. Yeah.

20:20Well anyway then after that I decided I must find any job because my parents I didn't know and my parents I had a French scholarship but after that you know I had to be self sustained and it was my family that could be sending me money to stay on in France because the war was still on and So I started looking for a job any job to be to lessen the b the financial burden for my parents because you see the irony of it is that all through I had kept my Saigon passport never crossed my mind that I need to you know apply for French citizenship I it didn't arise to me I don't know why. I mean because I was quite comfortable. I was legally there, you know, and I could not understand why should I apply for French citizenship because I was fully comfortable retaining that Vietnamese citizenship even if no I'm Saigon or no Saigon it was Vietnamese citizenship and I thought so to me I couldn't understand why I should you know switch citizenship and I started looking for just any job, you know, but I bumped into the requirement that you had to have a kind of work permit more or less like everywhere until now.

22:10After a some more time, you imagine I was reading the job the job announcements on the papers. So once I saw looking for a babysitter, you know, and so on and so forth and who but you know, obviously it was a family that had means, you see, and it I was attracted to that because it was right in central Paris, not having to travel too far. So on the phone she sounded with the lady of the house sounded very sort of forthcoming. Okay. So come tomorrow. Come tomorrow. But give me your name so I can open the door for you when you come. So the moment I said in French I felt through the phone I could oh you know It was a non-starter. Yeah. But she was polite enough to say, "Oh, sorry, we're looking for a French citizen."

23:33You know, stories of real life. Yeah. So, you have this over overqualified young girl, young woman who can't get a babysitter's job regular, no, not one of full-time. M because she's not French. So at least, you know, I have stories to share that might resonate with the common young Vietnamese, you know, other Vietnamese. Well, overqualified. Second, speak perfect. So say, "Oh, come tomorrow." And by the time I gave my name, I can't come anymore. Didn't get a job. But then I did survive by and this is the lesson of life at the end of the day. Don't tell me that's only in Vietnam that connections, relationships, stuff. They do also in France. So after the two failed attempts, one day I was sitting at a cough a cafe in Paris. People who are not still too busy tend to spend quite some time in cafe. Yes. So, capitaras especially the open air and then two girls who were the daughters of my main teacher professor at Sorbonne passed in front and asked me you got a job now they knew I was one of his favorite students and did you get a job?

25:07No. And I told them the story. So they go got home and told their father that it was really terrible in injustice to me that I had studied fully in the French system and I couldn't find a job. So he said okay I'll take care of that. So he opened there was an opening that you could teach by the hour not being recruited you know so permanently or long term. In other words if you take up teaching one or two course equivalent of how many hours per week you would be paid consequently. Yeah. So that's what I took. I was a let's say how do you call that part-time kind of part-time lecturer at Paris University. So that's how I survived in last year my last few years in Paris. So I looking back I thought well honest connections help you know my professor remembered me but it's thanks to the two daughters that you know told my story that he was called upon and was able to help me else I really don't know what I would have to sort of relieve my parents of the financial burden of sending me you know monthly stipen or allowance because I thought here I have graduated and still have to rely on my old parents money that's not right I've got to find a solution you know but in other words I was lucky enough at the end to find something that was in my strengths you know teaching I started teaching Shakespeare at university well that's my story in France before I came back to Saigon. Yeah.

Quang Do

27:19Tell us about the story of coming back what made you decide to come back and how was that like.

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

27:28While I started teaching I of course I was very I was an anti-war activist already by then but mostly with French friends and but since that's what I explained in the VnExpress podcast in 1969 Ho Chi Minh died and to me it was really a shock and I went to they had an a kind of commemorative altar. The Union of Vietnamese in France had an altar for all Vietnamese in France who wanted to to put an incense in his memory and I went there and that's where I met with you know the members of the union students and other members and I started working with them to push the anti-war movement in of the Vietnamese in France and part of that was to also provide services for the two delegations of the DRV, Hanoi, and the PRG of Madame Bình in the south. So where I help translate documents, speeches and sometimes I even interpreted for Madame Bình not at the negotiating table but when she received journalists or mothers of GIS and so forth and so that's how I caught the attention of the delegation of the PRG and by 72 they asked me to go back to Saigon.

Quang Do

29:40Why?

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

29:41You have to understand this. I explained this in the VnExpress piece. Some people think of the resistance only as armed resistance but now it was political resistance too and it was very meticulously and strategically deployed planned and deployed because you see the strength of the PRG was in the countryside. Not so much in the cities of course. So they needed people from the cities you know to provide support and connections and so on. And so they thought I was a perfect fit because they must have a sense that I was really committed and because you see I came from a family that was well positioned and so that could help also. So I'm telling all this to say that it was really strategically thought they were preparing for the political struggle after the signing of the Paris peace agreement. The Paris peace agreement was signed on the 27th of January 73. I returned to Saigon in July 20 1972 before this the signing of the Paris. So they were preparing the political base you know in Saigon. So you know this is to tell that if you imagine that all the Viet Cong knew what to do. It was just to fight with their weapons with a car physical force.

31:58I think you got it inaccurate. They were very strategic. So they engaged the intellectuals you know the anti-war intellectuals in the diaspora in Paris. This is a story I think to be told bit later a bit later but this is I'm not sure that because you can look for students of international relations and international crisis you can look in other parts of the world I'm not sure they you know that the whole you know the whole operation was so well prepared that combining politics and armed struggle and international relations. Madame you know she visited I don't know how many countries she was invited all over the place. So so ideology apart you understand if you're really focused on how it was conducted on our side you know and you can hear me I'm not easy to convince you see what I so in other words it was very masterful the way it was conduct and one of these days you should also I hear that the American and filmmakers would like to do the Ho Chi Minh trail.

33:36That would be great because that also is something but the ho during you know the anti-US war the so in other words you have the whole length of really struggle fighting building surviving on the terrain to you know the stratospheres of diplomacy and you know the let's say the subtleties and intricacies of social sociopolitical life in Saigon. Yeah. So it's something that these days we're too busy trying to rise and grow but for students of history I think. It's a matter that is so rich you know that we should not let it sort of fade out completely.

Quang Do

34:42Tell us about your return you know how did it feel to return in 72.

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

34:46This is kind of middle when I returned my parents of course were pleased. Yeah. And I was teaching at the teachers training college of Saigon and also at Marie Curie my former high school and they didn't know that I was working for the NLF, the National Liberation Front although one day 72 let's say summer of 72 relatives from [unclear] came to Saigon and when they saw me there they one of them said, "Oh, we thought you were the personal secretary of Madame Bình. Imagine plumbing Saigon dropping that kind of sentence. It was life-threatening to me, you know. So I had to pull all my British phlegm. I said, "Oh, come on. If I had been a private secretary of Madame Bình, I wouldn't be here."

36:03No, I just brushed it aside. That was, you know, what a short sentence like that declining to go into it, you know, not going for it at all. I sort of shrug in my shoulders. This is nonsense. Inside of course I felt I felt very nervous. If I get started like this, you know, might not be safe for a long time. But I think it's 50 years after the end of the war and I hope for the younger generation you can especially overseas you know you can take up an objective mind open mind you know I when I was in the national assembly I have to go into what I did later to shed light on what I'm saying about that period. In 2003 I was elected to a national assembly and took up the vice chair post of the foreign relations committee and I organized a trip to the US to make a whole tour several cities and it ended in San Diego.

37:37In UC San Diego at the University of UC San Diego and I gave a talk there and there was an Orange County group that came to kind of disrupt. So I let them ask questions and all that, but my overall response to them was Vietnam is not paradise, but it's definitely not the kind of hell that you seem to describe. Then later that evening, I that a lecturer, an associate professor at UC San Diego, Vietnamese American I was invited gave a party and I cocktail and I attended and there one teacher, one professor Vietnamese asked me what do you think? Did do you think do you think about this afternoon? So I told her, well, I of course I'm a bit disappointed. I would have love to have something more constructive, a more constructive to and fro and give and take.

39:01And do you know what she said? Out because I forgot to say a whole busload of Orange County anti-communist bust themselves to UC San Diego to protest me in 2004. Imagine that nearly 20 years after the end of the war protesting the presence of a Vietnamese official watch for I mean and so and then then at the end of that exercise I thought it's really sad because one young among the protesters who were let into room. There was a young woman, second generation, born in the US, definitely who raised her hand and I gave her the floor and she moved closer to me and pulled out the paper. Imagine a young Vietnamese American in the early 20s needing a piece of paper to speak. You see what I mean? She was reciting reading what her parents or father had scribbled for her who wasn't you see what I so it saddened me that you know why couldn't she say herself you know and so when I was asked that question what do you think about this afternoon he said well I'm a bit sad that we didn't grow quite as I would have wished and then that lecturer said, "Oh, but you have to understand to empathize.

40:50They have lost so much. They have lost so much." She meant you know some of the veterans there or children of the Saigon veterans. You know what I answered her? I said, "Look, let's talk about losses because we cannot decide or tell who lost more. This is a futile exercise. You see what I mean? How many died under the American bombs? You see what I mean? That's over. That's the past. So resentment because of that today is not justified because if you justify that some of our veterans would be justified to take the same posture but they don't they receive American veterans sometimes with open arms at least with a smile you know so the attitude in Vietnam is quite different and so I said please let's start this futile exercise about who lost more who suffered the time now is to come together not to do a counting of what but if we start counting I'm not sure it's going to weigh more on the other side she said but that's futile this is no longer the time for that let's leave it behind That's part of the sort of past that we need to reconcile with and so you see I hope today and that's why you should go perhaps you have you should listen to Ted Osius. He did a podcast with the etc. No, and recently and he said he learned from Vietnamese forgiveness in that podcast with how he said that you know before his term as ambassador he traveled from south to north or north to south of Vietnam riding a bicycle.

43:15Then it passed through Quảng Trị and we know that Quảng Trị is the most heavily bombed province in South Vietnam. More heavily bombed than the whole of Europe during World War II [unclear]. So bomb craters are still there. And so Ted Osius stops and talks to an old lady asked her, "Have you lost relatives?" She said, "Yes. But she added, "But now it's over." We are in Vietnamese. She was speaking an old lady. How could she speak in English? So Ted was saying imagine she was calling me a younger brother, em, and she had lost imparting relatives perhaps children or husband to the US bombs. So that's why I'm saying the ability of the Vietnamese in general to you know let bygones be bygones not to forget but not to let the vans pull you back and make you let's say hateful or resentful and preventing you from moving on. So this is the big lesson of the Vietnamese to I think to the world. Because once I told that kind of story to Europeans and French people who said, "Oh, you know, in the cities close to the German border in the early decades after the end of World War II, if in a cafe they saw a German stepping in, you would hear a glacial, you know, silence Oh, they were still staring at Germans. So, you don't see that in Vietnam.

45:25And so, that's why I think the Vietnamese have something to share with the world. Our story, our national story. First of all, forget about the division, you see, but read through the national identity through history. Through history and not stop at just the political division between north and south that lasted only couple of decades you know and that's why I think telling the Vietnamese diaspora story I think would be a good contribution to to sort of explaining what's so special about the Vietnamese So, I've spoken a lot. I think take a sip.

Quang Do

46:17I I'm still collecting my thoughts. I think you it's a very important message. A very You said it very straightforward.

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

46:26Yeah. You know, my family was in the south. Have two feet on both sides of the political equation and what can should unite both sides is a love of the nation of the country of the people of Vietnam you can have whatever political you know affiliation or sort of tendencies you wish but that's secondary to me you cannot put it on top. Top is the nation and national identity. After that only well you belong to this that party this or that trend political trend. Yeah that's if you approach things like that makes it easy. You see what I mean? So what you like western democracies more fine that's your choice. You are comfortable with the one party system should be fine too. It's my choice. So we should be able to live with different political choices. That's my message. Yeah. Because political choices may divide sometimes divide even for a long time very strongly as well.

47:50But at the end of the day, something that will be there forever is national and cultural identity. That you should not never overlook those values and identities and that's what grounds us. You can lose your party you know party ticket but let's not lose your cultural identity. Don't be don't be ashamed of your national and cultural identity.

Quang Do

48:28I'm grateful for your straightforward message and it's very aligned with what I try to do with OV. I have to navigate sometimes the diaspora sentiments as well. And so we I tend to be also very diplomatic about everything that is happening. But I think the core message is just such an important one. And the younger generations seem to be also more ready for being united and I think that's all that matters really.

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

49:00United would be the optimal result achieved but at least comfortable you see I mean let's be realistic united is right up here you know but comfortable with differences and nuances you see what that's the level that We should strive for most people. Yeah. And united for some you're not going to unite all I don't think. So let's be realistic. But if nearly all are come to okay I don't like him or her or this or that much. But I can live with it. I'm not going to start fingerpointing all the time or pursing my lips all the time or preventing my you know kids or my younger brethren and sisters to not do it to not join to not you know take part. So I mean the message should be I think realistic and applicable.

Quang Do

50:17Tell us about that. Transition or that time from returning to Saigon teaching and then all the way to yes becoming an official.

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

50:28In 1978 I was invited to take part in a delegation of young people and young intellectuals to attend the youth the international youth festival in Cuba. And there was a special guest of honor in our delegation and that was Mr. Xuân Thủy who had been the head of the Hanoi delegation to the Paris peace talks. So he knew me from then and he recognized me and a few months later when he passed through Saigon he I was invited to sit down with him and he proposed that I moved to Hanoi to become a diplomat but he was with the external relations of the party. So it was party diplomacy but he knew me from then and he invited me to move to Saigon. That was a drastic offer because I had my elderly parents in Saigon and I never knew Hanoi. Well, of course I had stopped in Hanoi on the way to inter and one or two international conferences.

52:05You know before that but I wasn't really accustomed to life in Hanoi which was much more difficult than Saigon or was already very difficult because it was 75 the embargo and the fact that we didn't produce that much you know the agricultural the food output so on so forth and to me it was really a puzzling and challenging offer. And so I started consulting friends and relatives and there were two camps unsurprisingly it was not united piece of advice. So some said don't go you know don't go because you'll be lonely, you'll be isolated, you don't know anybody nearly any. I do have a few relatives up there but you know you won't you won't develop your skills there. So then there was the other the other viewpoint or group was saying go for it because that's really an opportunity a real challenge but an a really distinct opportunity to make a difference because it's pulling you out of your sort of teaching environment into a different world And I hesitated a few weeks and what decided me to say yes and that I must say is the turning point of my career was what Mr. Xuân Thủy said when he heard me because he inquired you know had I made up my mind and this and that said I'm hesitating because I love education too and this and that and diplomacy is really new to me and this and that and what he said was you know it's don't think that it's because you are fluent in both French and English that we are inviting you because that we can find here and there and don't worry about education.

54:33You're doing fine in education but there are others who can do as fine and perhaps better than you. So you can sort of with peace of mind leave education but join the external front the diplomatic front. He said this that really made me decide to say yes. He said, "But you see up there in Hanoi, there's a new peaceful reunified Vietnam will have to develop, build up and develop a new diplomatic front engaging the rest of the world, including the western world. And in our ranks up here in Hanoi, there are hardly any people who have lived as long as you have in the West. Understanding the mindset, the mentality, the customs, the culture, the habits and all that of the western world. So this is why we need you. I was quite surprised. You know, at first I had thought, oh, they want my English and French skills, but no, he said, no, of course, it helps, but that's not the main point. The main point is somebody who understands the world, the western world. You see, so I mean when you pose the issue like that, it was very encouraging, stimulating to me.

56:05They look beyond my linguistic skills and they want therefore something more than different from just linguistic skill. So that's why that's when I said yes. And it was crossing the Rubicon because you see I know in those days you can't imagine the poverty the poverty the austere the very stern living conditions facing all cadre bureaucrats alike you know. So when you have been through that kind of period, you know, you take a kind of philosophical approach to life and work.

Quang Do

56:58Tell us about your time as a diplomat and how you've seen the rise of Vietnam through.

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

57:05Yeah. I think that it's been steady. The rise has been steady. And I think we have managed to create to inspire friends in all directions on the way. So, I haven't met I stand to be contradicted, but I haven't met anybody who said, "Well, we broke glasses on the way." No. So it has it's an ability, a power, a specificity, an identity of the Vietnamese. This capacity to attract, to to persuade, to win over You and I would you would be hardput to tell me how many enemies we did we made ourselves after the end of the war. Just Pol Pot of course the me but apart from me tell me who has been helpful hostile to Vietnam the only equation is how close friendly of use to both sides and particularly to Vietnam are the ties that we are changing and I tell you it's really particular to Vietnam this ability this power to win over to attract and win over make friends enduring friends I have stories to tell like my war we're going on for example I remember the chargé d'affaires you know before with there was a full-fledged first ambassador Pete Peterson the pilot there was Desaix Anderson who was the chargé d'affaires in Hanoi and he was so close to Vietnam, so you know, knowledgeable also about Vietnam and things Vietnamese culture, art and all that.

1:00:14And I remember that he told me, "Oh, you should go you should go to Washington." And he said, "You will smash them." Imagine from the mouth of an American diplomat, you should go to Washington, you would smash them, meaning that persuade win them over and so and I think one of the greatest most symbolically significant story is how we cooperate you know US Vietnam and US on overcoming sequels consequences of the war. So you have heard about it removing of UXO unexploded ordnance. So the US veterans for peace chapter led by Chuck Searcy who was himself a veteran now doing work there to remove because as I told you was the most heavily bombed province in Vietnam.

1:01:30There are still bombs and explosive devices to this day there. So this is what I mean by the ability to you know to work with your former foes. I don't I tell veterans US veterans who come to visit me you know you're lucky I tease them. I say you're lucky to have us that we can you know sit for friendly chats now after what happened. You could you I suppose you can't imagine yourself doing the same with the Iraqis or the Afghans or the Libyans because it takes on the other side of the US a certain attitude, philosophy, temperament and culture to be able to do it because we could have grown hateful. Or at least in qui definitely. Yeah. So I think that is something that we should feel heartened and proud of because it's quite unique. It's quite unique. And Charles Bailey of the Ford Foundation and who worked a lot on Agent Orange, he wrote a book, From Foes to partners to tell the agent orange co cooperation story.

1:03:11So you see there are a lot of things going on that need to be known and you know remembered and told because it sheds light not only on the uniqueness of the relationships with former foes. Mostly the most sort of telling evident being you know striking let's say would be with the US well if you ask me what's a one of the prominent defining features of the Vietnamese and Vietnamese culture or identity I think is this ability to let bygones be bygones, not to obfuscate the past but to know the past. Sometimes even to revere the past but doesn't prevent us from moving ahead looking to the future including in relation and with former adversaries.

1:04:29That's rather I think that's rather unique. We should treasure this. We should be proud. But more than that, I think we should treasure this. Why? Why I say this? Because it's a magic formula for survival progress and identity defining identity affirmation. You see, so in other words, this makes us who we are. You know, we don't have to be to be ashamed. We don't need to boast. It's just a natural. And so when foreigners of whatever countries come, they sense that. Of course, they do not quite sort of rationalize and put it in words. No, that's why we need to tell the story but in the kind of feelings you know their reactions that's what they are showing they are so surprised you know that the we have many museums you know about the past but the we're not being weighed down by that In fact, the past gives us inspiration to resist when we need but to move on when we must.

Quang Do

1:06:13Let's talk to that diaspora a bit. You know, there are many overseas Vietnamese who would like to engage with Vietnam, who would like to connect, reconnect, have a closer relationship with Vietnam. What would you advise them?

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

1:06:29I think opportunities exist but they need to be sort of developed in a more structured and effective manner. So, I don't know your outfit could be one of the outfits that would organize periodic conversations for overseas Vietnamese who want to inquire but you know with their background, their life story, their field of expertise what it is that you know they could try and do. And this is the perfect moment you know that the government is trying to attract overseas talent through financial center you know AI center and this and that you know so or to teach to teach also because we have to grow local workforce you know at a high level. So because in terms of numbers you know it's not enough to send them abroad and at first they want to stay understandably so we can't wait for them 10 more years you know Vietnam is in a hurry so I think that well they can stay but perhaps they'll come back later but we need talent now talent and expertise now so that's why I think One of the things that should be looked at is you know sort of fostering that talent right here. Part of it. Not only relying on them coming back because that's not quite realistic yet, you see, but perhaps inducing them to collaborate with educational and training entities here for the top-notch talent, classes and programs and seminars that zero in on the top.

1:08:52That should be something that they might want to do. They keep their job over there, but they can spend two, three weeks, you know, their vacation instead of going to the seaside in the Bahamas. So, why don't why don't they come back here and spend a few days resting and then helping with training talent at the higher level. I think it would be more realistic than asking them to come back for long periods of time. Possible, but that has to be prepared properly. What are the conditions the inducing factors that would be required?

Quang Do

1:09:39How do you how do you see the role of the diaspora in general for Vietnam?

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

1:09:46You know talent and expertise and also ambassadorship ambassadors because after all I mean you know how can we and know this or that country as well as they do so ambassadors for Vietnam in one way or another in one field or another so why don't do why don't you do it because that's worth it and initiative I I'm really ready to to provide any advice or take any minor part or that might be of use to help you because it's got to be from overseas Vietnamese who are back here because you have legs feet on both sides. Right? Like it can't come only from somebody who 24 hours on 24 years of them. They don't take the feel of the difficulties but also the real opportunities that may spring at any time. And mind you, mind you, when it's the logic of speed, when it starts picking up, then it goes very fast, you know. So, I think of course I'm not young enough, but perhaps you and the others in your group, I mean, you are young enough, you have to feel it. Is this the moment? Are we at the starting moment? You see, and if we are, then you've got to get your act together fast. You can't say, "Let's think hard.

1:11:40Two years later, we come back." 2 years later will be really late. Yeah. I think it's got to be What do we do in 2026? After all, we're only towards the end of Well, on to on Sundays to be February already. Yeah. So you see what I mean? So sense of urgency and opportunity. When opportunity comes knocking at the door, you scratch your head only for a short time and then you make a decision to jump or not jump. But you know opportunity won't wait for you. I mean so this sense of now is the moment is really there is really there but you have to make it happen because you know it's in the air you know it's in the air but definitely but you've got to make it happen by initiatives by action by you know trials and errors and I'm all with you if you need a piece of my advice here and there, I will always be there to help. But the ball is in your court. I'm an old lady. So, the action has to be yours. I can only contribute intellectual and experience input.

Quang Do

1:13:12That's a great message as well. And you certainly do and did your part.

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

1:13:16Yeah. Well, I mean, and I do it with an open mind and open heart and I hope that, young people, but you've got to recruit, allies who are not overseas. See what I mean? So in other words, if you have a not a crisis group, a think tank group, be sure that you pull in couple of non-overseas Vietnamese but who have studied or worked abroad who are back. Yeah. Because even better who have been either through bureaucracy or the bureaucratic system or who have opened their own institutions or schools or businesses or you know you need that too because they have the feel of what will work will not work what will stick what will you know what might be the hurdles in penance so if it's only overseas Vietnamese alone. I think we miss something.

Quang Do

1:14:26We have both actually. We have both. Yeah. So, it's [unclear] like me who grew up overseas and we have the other counterpart who grew up here and then went overseas to study other study. So, okay, that's it. And we're all in one community and network.

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

1:14:40Great. Great. So, wish all your all of you well. Thank you. I hope you can come up if you can come up with a proposal to the government about how to attract talent back that would be awesome. Yeah. So why not anyway? I mean perhaps the government will not take all of it but it might take seriously part of it. And I together with friends we would try and make sure that you have a you have a forum to be listened to present your ca your case your proposal. I'm sure they would they would take notice and that I think it's an initiative that's really worth doing taking up timely and that can only be well received to a greater or slightly lesser extent.

1:15:56But time is of the essence, right? Within 6 months, you need to come up with a preliminary blueprint.

Quang Do

1:16:06Yeah, we can talk about that and happy to move this forward.

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

1:16:10So, I think that in other words, it's time to think and act. Yes. But just think if I can help in any way, I will. Yeah. Do you know Mr. [unclear], the economist he's worked at the I will introduce him to you one of these days so start continue thinking sending out your friends in the in OV, okay, and around this issue and I will invite a couple of more senior more elderly people I mean Mr. [unclear]. He was one of the advisers in the Congress. He's a senior economist. Yeah. And he knows the political you know officials here the economist and he's well known. Yeah. But you know but he's a he's a Vietnamese American. So but he used to be during under prime minister he was in soal advisor advisory group called the Friday group which means that he had access to very high level information and so I think that he would be really pleased to be part of. So together with me and I will try and discuss with him.

1:17:47Yeah. You we would be the older people, you know, to sort of to hear you out to say, well, that might work, that might not be for now, you know, and so it would be a good let's say add up to the conversation.

Quang Do

1:18:05Good intergenerational.

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

1:18:07Yes. Intergenerational. So you can give your take. Yes. And then we would react because I'm no economist. So that's why I think Mr. [unclear]. I think there's a third person that is that would be a good addition is a university professor who is also back here from Utah. We must let Professor Associate let me take those names after this. Yeah, you can look them up. You can look them up, ask about them. I think that I really trust them and I think highly of their opinion. Yes. So in other words, I'm bringing couple of old oldies Yes. To your younger group. Yeah. Yeah.

Quang Do

1:19:06No, I love the helpful spirit you have and I'm certainly what you said in the beginning with now is the time to take action. I'm certainly someone who takes action, who likes to move things forward. So, I think it's a good match there. Madame Ninh, what are you most excited about for Vietnam and our people in the next coming years and decades?

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

1:19:28First of all to make it obviously I mean all those proclaimed their goals and objectives is to really reach a higher income status. Yeah. But so because you know it's very last year we grew 8% on average. Can we maintain it and even move higher? The leaders tend to put the bar rather high double digit. I'm no economist so I can't really decide or have an opinion on that but the urge the desire the ambition is palpable among layers of the decision makers of the economist and businesses and young technocrats and so on so forth. So I mean in other words can we rise? Can Vietnam rise in time? No. But we've got to get our act together in order to it won't happen by itself. What I'm saying is that it's a big challenge and a constant thinking and acting effort. It won't happen by itself. So that's why you know object like yours I think could make a one you know interesting and perhaps even significant contribution expertise and intellectually wise.

1:21:22And so the sense of urgency of opportunity I think is really floating in the air and you know when I was when I saw you know the streets of Saigon city on the 30th of April I mean you could see all those young people I thought wow I you know nobody is telling them to go out in on the streets, you know, and so and in Hanoi 2nd of September, the same thing. So what I'm saying, so doesn't they don't put it in words, but you can you can feel it. But it won't last long if the promise is not kept. If the potential is not being worked upon to fruition that sort of enthusiasm will slowly go down. So I mean it's a big challenge. I think it's a big challenge but we should not let only the government officials and bureaucrats handle this. I think if it doesn't happen might be because of them but it might be because who were too small we those who know who have expertise who have experience it won't happen of itself. It's not because up there they you know they propose we should attain this or that they're objective and it will happen to make it happen. All of us need to join and if we see that there's something that is not properly thought out we should say it out loud you see and propose I don't know different options and corrective options the structuring of economic measures and it's outside my if we discuss about international relations and the global environment Of course, I have my opinion, some understanding.

1:23:48If you go into, you know, moving the GDP per capita up, you know, to to where our ambition aims to be, Mr. [unclear] will be more your man.

Quang Do

1:24:05Madame Ninh, I thank you so much for your sharings, for your pragmatism, for your straightforward messages. Yeah. And for everything you've done. And let's follow up on this. It's time. We need to make it happen, like you said, and we need to make it happen together.

Ton Nu Thi Ninh

1:24:21I always I'm prepared to contribute and help where I can.

Quang Do

1:24:31Thank you so much. Okay. Thanks. Okay. Yeah.