What built modern Vietnam.

Bui Kien Thanh

0:00How can you build a strong country on the basis of the poor people? No way. So I say you must think of making the people rich in order to have a strong country. Vietnam today is friendly to all and enemy not like before. And I very strongly believe that in the next 50 years, Vietnam will be a major player not only in Asia but in the whole world.

Quang Do

0:30Bác Thành, you are 94 years old. I truly, truly appreciate you making it all the way from district 7 to here just to talk to us today. For those who don't know you, how would you introduce yourself?

Bui Kien Thanh

0:46Well, great pleasure meeting you and talking to you today and first of all happy new year. Happy new year. Best wishes to you and to all our friends around the world. Very simple. I was born in Quảng Nam Province in the countryside. My grandfather on my father's side is a was a farmer. My ancestor came from Nghệ An Province in the 17th or 16th century to Quảng Nam and I'm the 18th generation of the Bui family in Quảng Nam. My grandfather side on my mother's side was a mandarin at the court of Huế. My father was a student when he got married at 18. My mother was only 15 and I was born when my mother was 16. And my father followed his study in Hanoi first and then he went to France for medical study. He did not return until 1941.

2:09So all those time first I stay on my mother's side and at the age of six or seven I move up to my grandfather on my father's side. So, my childhood was practically in the villages playing with the buffalo boy most of the time but very comfortable. I feel very at ease. As a matter of fact, I don't know why, but well, even though I was in the villages, the countryside, I feel I was just there temporarily and my destiny was not in the village. And when I see the sunrise or the sunset, my eyes just burst out to the sky and wonder where I come from and where I'm going. So that was when my childhood. And when my father came back from France in 1941, I followed my father in his enterprises. First he had a laboratory pharmaceutical laboratory in Quy Nhơn Province and then his associate did not want to be associated with the oriental medicine.

3:42So he dropped that and organized his own medical oriental medical laboratory and change the name to you see even though he was trained in France he did not really try to be a French doctor. He study how the health situation in Vietnam had to be developed and how to help the 25 or 26 million people in Vietnam then who did not have the mean to buy product from the pharmacy. So he organized his Nhà thuốc Bác sĩ Tín with oriental medicine beginning with Thuốc ho Bác sĩ Tín and the most famous one is Khuynh diệp Bác sĩ Tín to care for the villagers and for the more not privileged people and by 1975 to become a very well-known and covered the whole country. I learned that in 1975 out of 20 million people in South Vietnam Nhà thuốc Bác sĩ Tín sold more than 20 million bottles of eucalyptus oil Khuynh Diệp Bác sĩ Tín.

5:14So that was my story. And then during the year from 1941 until 45 I did not study very much. I was sent to Institut de la Providence, a Catholic school in Huế. But because of the war situation, I got back to Quy Nhơn and then to Saigon and I didn't study anymore from Lớp 5, Lớp 6 fifth sixth grade. But later I realized at the age of 15 I must do my best to pass the Baccalauréat you know in time to attain university. And from 47 to 49 in two years I had the privilege of having a private teacher who came to my house. Actually my mother rented a whole villa for him to stay in Phu Lam district now. And I went there to study every day for two years to complete the six years of secondary study in two years from a grade 6 to grade 12.

6:44But then I did not have the Livret Scolaire you know the school booklet to apply for examination in Saigon. So I asked my mother to permit me to go to France to pass the exam what they call the Baccalauréat you know the 12 grade exam in France. It took me some time to study French because in Saigon we did not study French but in four three four months I to the French classic in order to pass the first Baccalauréat in France which I did with the help of another uncle who came back from Berlin where he taught French to German school to help me learn French in order to pass the Baccalauréat exam in France. And after that, I registered in a lycée, normal French lycée, Lycée Fontainebleau, you know, outside of Paris for the Baccalauréat number two. And after one year, I passed the exam and I applied for university study in Paris in the middle of my preparation to what they call the Grandes écoles in France. It was in Paris, six main schools, beginning with École Polytechnique etc. So you had to be prepared for competitive exam to be admitted to those schools. I intended to study aeronautic and space science right at that time already. But my father say that line of study may not be very helpful to Vietnam.

8:56So he obtained a scholarship for me to go to the United States to study economics. So I abandoned my preparation for Grande écoles in France to go to United States and in order to do that I have to study English. So from January to September 1951 I study English in London. And then I moved to the United States in September 51 to join university in the US. That is part of my life as student. So I leave you with the next question.

Quang Do

9:41Yeah. Fantastic. Would love to just continue there. How you know which university did you join? Where did you stay? How was your time in the US?

Bui Kien Thanh

9:50Yes. The first year in the United States, my father got a scholarship for me to study in a Catholic school in Saint John's University in Collegeville, Minnesota. A very reputed school run by the Benedictine fathers. And after one year there and I learned a lot, not only economics, not only controlling, but a lot about religion because I was admitted into a priesthood student class with emphasis on economics. But after one year study in Saint John, I found that economics is not really in the Minnesota state but somewhere else. So I applied for Columbia University in New York City where I think is the best school for economics and management. You know in the United States the famous university for that beginning with Columbia, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Cornell.

11:10But Harvard is very famous for management but Columbia is special because in New York City and the student body is very special. Most of them come from very big family in United States. You have at least two classes of leadership. The manager and the owner. Harvard is manager. What Columbia are owner. The kids who went to Columbia mostly come from family such as Rothschild, Rockefeller, etc. So I thought to myself for something to Vietnam later on it would be best for me to be with a student body among the top economic leader of the world and that is at Columbia. That's why I registered in Columbia to study economics for two years. After my graduation in 1954, I want to I wanted to follow up with the master degree in Columbia. But the event with that during my study in Columbia, I met Ngô Đình Diệm who was an exile in Maryknoll Sister convent in New Jersey. And every weekend Ngô Đình Diệm would come over to New York to visit a friend and I was invited by my friend in New York to join conversation within Ngô Đình Diệm.

Quang Do

12:56Just for context quickly to confirm this is the former prime minister of South Vietnam.

Bui Kien Thanh

13:02Yeah. Ngô Đình Diệm later on became prime minister of Vietnam. And later on became president of Vietnam. So I have two years of conversation and very close association with Ngô Đình Diệm during those years and when he became prime minister in July 54 in Saigon. Yeah. He sent a message to ask me to come back to assist him and I came back to Saigon with five other friend students in the United States to be myself personal assistants to the prime minister at that time. And for two years I served as assistant to the prime minister during very trying time from August 54 to the establishment of the Vietnam Republic in 55 right and on to 56 when I was sent to work at the National Bank of Vietnam because Vietnam gained monetary independence from France at the end of 54 and the French government turned over the Bank of Indochina to the Vietnam government. The Bank of Indochina were the issuing bank, the central bank of Indochina at that time. So I was sent with another group to take over the Bank of Indochina and to establish the National Bank of Vietnam which were the central bank of South Vietnam at that time.

14:52I worked there for about a year and then the president sent me to the United States again. Yeah. For study for advanced study in bank management and financial matters. So I went back to the United States in 1956 under program run by the United Nation, United States AID and I followed a training course covering all activity of a commercial bank at Chase Manhattan Bank then all the step for a investment bank at Merrill Lynch and then every action and work at the central bank at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. I was practically the only person in Vietnam to be trained all the way from commercial bank, investment bank and central bank under a US program.

Quang Do

15:56Was there a goal from the prime minister for you to receive that training?

Bui Kien Thanh

16:02When the president sent me to work to the national bank of Vietnam which with the central bank but Vietnam is not yet very developed in any banking matter so we need to have more training and that's why I was sent to New York for advanced training in bank management from commercial bank to investment bank to central bank so that and we had enough experience to help develop the National Bank of Vietnam. Yeah. But then after I finished my study there, the government feel that relationship with the US banking system must be more developed. So the president named me as representative of the National Bank of Vietnam in New York City to represent the banking authority for the Republic of Vietnam in New York. I was among maybe 40 or 50 central bank representatives in New York City at that time at a very young age. I was 26.

17:20Yeah. Where my other colleague are over 50s and in that capacity I was responsible for overseeing the commercial program for American aid in Vietnam. You know, American aid at that time to Vietnam was what called promotion economic aid around $300 million and the government issue licenses for importer to import medicines, automobile or consumer goods from the US to Vietnam. Import license issue to the importers and American bank are designated as correspondent bank. So depending on each program what they call the PA procurement authorization the central bank would send one PA to Chase Manhattan bank, one PA to a Citi bank, one PA to Morgan and so on. So I was named Central Bank of Vietnam representative in New York to oversee the execution of this program to run it smoothly so that the importer would get their license executed and the bank would pay the exporter and the importer will get their good and the importer would pay what they call counterpart fund in Vietnamese dong to the Vietnam. Bank and the Vietnam bank would pay that to the central bank which will serve as the fund to run the government at that time. So I was made the representative of the central bank of Vietnam in New York for two years. M after system runs smooth loosely I say well now there is no more need for a representative of the central bank of Vietnam in New York for that purpose. So the government sent me back to Saigon and my job when I come back to Saigon were to organize what is it called the bank examination department.

19:42You know the central bank must follow up activity of the commercial bank and every now and then the central bank would send out a team to examine the activity and the books of the commercial bank. Such is very normal in any central bank activity but the central bank in Vietnam did not have that. So the government and the central bank asked for Federal Reserve Bank of New York for assistance to create and build the bank examination department for the central bank in Vietnam. And I was sent back to work with the New York Federal Reserve Bank of Vietnam to set up the bank examination department for the central bank in Saigon. After that I feel that my work with the government has been completed in 1958. I asked the president to let me go private. So I said to the president all my work as the expert from commercial bank or central bank now can be taken over. By all the official I wish to be in the private sector.

Quang Do

21:07Okay. What did you have in mind?

Bui Kien Thanh

21:09So the president hesitate very much but then finally he acceeded to my request and let me resign from the central bank to go into the private sector.

Quang Do

21:21What was your personal reason to move to the private sector?

Bui Kien Thanh

21:25What a very interesting sometime the question were destiny. I left the central bank and then I was invited by the chairman of AIG international at that time insurance right AIG to take over the management of AIU, American International Underwriters insurance company, in China. You see and the international chairman that time was CV Starr called Cornelius Vander Starr. He is the founder of all the American international insurance group in Shanghai and from Shanghai developed in China and after 49 in the United States and the system grew worldwide. When he came to Saigon to set up the AIU international insurance company there very early in the 1930-31. And from 41 to 1954 the group grew into one of the first leading insurance group in Saigon.

22:48It was headed by a French manager. Yeah. But after 56 when Vietnam achieved complete independence, the group was looking for a Vietnamese manager to head the insurance business in Vietnam. Yep. And the chairman Cornelius Starr asked his president system in Hong Kong to look for someone in Vietnam. The situation is rather long. Anyway, they did a very long study to find the person to head their activity and it happened that I just resigned from my position at the central bank being trained in Columbia University being trained in all sort of banking in New York being a representative of the central bank in New York City. So on I suddenly become available.

Quang Do

23:56Yeah. You speak French and English as well.

Bui Kien Thanh

24:01Yes. And I was invited to be the chief executive officer of AIU American International Underwriters Insurance Company. So that is how I switched over from public service to private sector. That was in 59. 59. I become chairman CEO of AIU, American International Underwriters Vietnam in 59. And well the the group is very thorough even though I have very good experience in wealth but I did not have much experience in insurance. So the chairman sent me to Hong Kong for executive training for six months. Marketing. I have to go to every sector of insurance in Hong Kong. You know, Hong Kong is the headquarter of American International Insurance for Southeast Asia. So, I were in the system for Southeast Asia. So after six month training in Hong Kong, I came back to Saigon to take up my job as the head of American International Underwriters.

25:21And I served in that capacity until 63. Yeah. When the military overthrew President Ngô Đình Diệm and put me in jail for 16 months.

Quang Do

25:35Tell us about that.

Bui Kien Thanh

25:37Yeah. But during that time my activity is not limited to insurance and limited to American International group. I organized all the business. And one of the most the important one is called Vietnam Automotive Battery Manufacturing Company to manufacture battery. Automotive battery. And my associate and partner came from the Philippines.

Quang Do

26:13So wait, this is this is your own company as well?

Bui Kien Thanh

26:17Yeah, we organized the company in Vietnam. The 80% was owned by Vietnamese enterprise and ownership and 20% by the Filipino group. But they have good technology because they had set up already factory in the Philippine. And they serve a technical director for me. And we copy practically their factory design in the Philippine to set up the factory in Vietnam. And we signed licenses with American Battery Group. You know the number one American battery group at that time actually have another name we call the Prestolite. Then I signed the license to Prestolite to take over the technology from Prestolite to develop and build battery for Vietnam under license from Prestolite. We pay we pay 3% license fee but we have all the technology and the design for the factory. So the what they call vacuum Vietnam automotive factory manufacturing company product is exactly the same quality with Autolite or Prestolite in the United States. Autolite was number one but it was sold to Ford so we could not license with Autolite we license with Prestolite. So Vietnam had the first joint venture agreement with the foreign investor through this Vietnam automotive battery manufacturing company and the first really high tech group to build and develop battery manufacturing in Vietnam. That was in the 1959 to 1963 when the factory was built.

Quang Do

28:26What's your role in?

Bui Kien Thanh

28:29I was the chairman and chief executive officer. And I invited the key leader of the automobile park in Vietnam to join. You know, Vietnam at that time had a very huge system for selling automobile part. And I got in touch with the main leader of automobile part distribution and invite them to be shareholder of and through their systems we sell battery to the civilian market. So right off the bat I cover more than 80% of the civilian market through the through the distributor that are really the key player for Vietnam automotive part in Vietnam at that time and when we do that I think of the military market and I had good relationship with the military and I invite one of the officer to be my market developer for the military market.

29:51And through that channel VABCO sell practically 70 80% to the military of Vietnam. Huge market but they're not enough I think of the American military market. Yeah. The military US use a lot a lot of battery and they are very not very careful about how they use it. So very wasteful anyway big market. So I sent my military officer to talk with the US military side and told them that you import military battery from the US. It take time to deliver and why can we sell it to you right here? Go and visit our factory. You will see check on our quality with the same quality as Prestolite Autolite in the US. So the military send inspector to visit my factory and after review they approve the quality and for that we sell almost 50% of the military procurement for battery in Vietnam. So we cover all the three market the civilian market the military market from the Vietnam side the US military market. So the enterprise become I think the biggest enterprise in Vietnam in 75 as far as revenue is concerned. See, well, I just we have to think of way of doing things and with my experience working with the National Bank in New York City, my relationship while I serve as a representative of the Central Bank of Vietnam in New York, I was invited to learn by the Rockefeller family and so on. So I was already on the top of the social and financial world at that time which allowed me the relationship to work for in Vietnam when I left the government to get into the private sector.

Quang Do

32:16Yeah. Fantastic. That was 64. That all ended right. You kind of.

Bui Kien Thanh

32:22It was ended after 63. When the military overthrew the government of Ngô Đình Diệm and I was put in jail.

Quang Do

32:31Yeah. And you were 15 months. You were early 30s, mid mid30s, I assume.

Bui Kien Thanh

32:37In 63 I was I was born in 1931. So 32 years.

Quang Do

32:4232. Yeah. Still young at the top of the pyramid and then you know things changed. Can you walk us through that experience?

Bui Kien Thanh

32:51But you know I was not accused of anything. It's just because I was very influential in Vietnam at that time being a very close associate of Ngô Đình Diệm well known in the public and the military was afraid that I may be a threat for them. So they just keep me in jail for 16 months like that. Isolate me from the outside world so that I would not be a threat for their regime.

Quang Do

33:22What was that like for you that experience?

Bui Kien Thanh

33:25Well, it was interesting for me. It was an opportunity rather than anything else because at the top of my career as a business person and as a personality in the political world in Saigon at that time. Suddenly I was put to some kind of sabbatical reflection time and I'm very lucky that during that time next to myself there was a person who recite the Buddhist song and one of the monks reciting Bát Nhã Tâm Kinh you know Ma Ha Bát Nhã Ba La Mật Đa Tâm Kinh So very influential to my mind at that time and it hit me with something very special about Buddhism. So I asked my family to send to me books to read within 15 months in jail. I read a lot of books on Buddhism.

Quang Do

34:36Yeah. And quickly before that were you were you Catholic?

Bui Kien Thanh

34:40I was in jail and then I was relieved later on and I went to France from January 64 to January 65 65 I was in jail in Saigon at the police headquarter.

Quang Do

35:01Yeah. Just quickly on religion. Yeah. You said you read about Buddhism, but before you went to Catholic schools, how did your faith?

Bui Kien Thanh

35:08Exactly. I learned a lot about the Bible. I learned a lot about the Catholic religion, but then I learned a lot about Buddhism during my months in jail. And not only Buddhism because Buddhism you got into all the other study Taoism. Lão Tử đạo đức kinh. So it was 15 months 16 months of very intense study about religion about philosophy of Asia the east from Buddhism to other school of study.

Quang Do

35:51You made the most of it.

Bui Kien Thanh

35:53Yeah, it's very I think it was a very valuable time for me that shaped my thinking and my behavior a lot after that.

Quang Do

36:05Did you have a process before going into jail or did they just throw it?

Bui Kien Thanh

36:11My prior in jail was to be in the business develop insurance industry. M.

Quang Do

36:18I mean was there a trial or a proper process for you that you were sentenced to jail?

Bui Kien Thanh

36:25Well, it was certain. I didn't expect to be picked up and sent to jail because I did nothing wrong. Yeah. But the military was afraid of me as being an influential person and they don't want to run the risk of having me outside and organizing counter revolution and so on. Yeah, they just put me in jail just be safe. Okay. But that's okay. I just use my time to study what I am privileged to get in touch with to study and it's very influential to my life later on.

Quang Do

37:03And did you know it would be 15 months or did you not know how long it would last?

Bui Kien Thanh

37:10No, we cannot know. There is no delay and then no accusation, nothing, you know. And then again military regime change and at the last change a person Mr. Nguyễn Xuân Oánh he's a graduate of Harvard University become deputy prime minister. And a friend of mine serve as his secretary and my friend asked Mr. Oánh one the deputy prime minister to release me from jail and Mr. Oánh see no reason to keep me in jail. So the deputy prime minister also signed an order To release me from jail just like that. Yeah. And then it was practically at Tết time I think 26 27 in December lunar year I was released from jail. And my family wasn't informed. So when I get out of jail, I just called a taxi and get back to my house. And my wife was outside somewhere. So I had to wait at the gate for a few hours. That's that it's very simple.

Quang Do

38:34Wow. But what happened then? I guess '64 65 this is when things change.

Bui Kien Thanh

38:39What happened after that was that even I was relieved from jail but the military still not feel very easy. So they call me back sometime every two other weeks to report to the police department to make declaration so that they can keep you know an eyes on me. After a few month like that I feel very tired about getting to report to the police every 3 weeks. So I went into the pagoda in Chợ Lớn and I learned to rest in Ấn Quang Pagoda. There again I had the opportunity to learn more about Buddhism and more a meeting the high priest there who also helped me a lot to see more than what I learn in books. And I stayed there for a number of months. And then a jail mate came to visit me and say, "Hey, Thành, you want to go with me to France?" Just like that. And I said, "Well, sure, why not?" So actually he had made arrangement with the Messageries Maritimes team which is the boat company that run the boat that go from Saigon to Marseilles.

Quang Do

40:04You know Hồ Chí Minh was in one of those boats. So with boat to Marseilles all the way.

Bui Kien Thanh

40:09Yeah Marseilles all the way from Saigon. So how to do that? Because we have no visa we have no passport nothing. So become clandestine passenger. At the given date Lộc, as his name his girlfriend and myself we went to dinner on the boat. Because the boat anchor in Saigon harbor and every now and then they organize dinner onboard. So we went to dinner on the boat of that on that night and after dinner we were hidden in the in the hole of the boat. For the night and the next day the boat just pull anchor and sail out. Right. Become a clandestine passenger that way from Saigon to Marseilles.

Quang Do

41:10And was it all on one boat to Marseilles?

Bui Kien Thanh

41:13One boat. Yes.

Quang Do

41:14Like 21 days like below Africa like how.

Bui Kien Thanh

41:17No actually that is a regular boat system for France and Vietnam. Yeah. Passenger boat or merchandise boat going from Vietnam Singapore and then to Djibouti to Fos-sur-Mer. The Suez Canal and Marseilles. Yes.

Quang Do

41:38Did your wife join you? Did your family join you?

Bui Kien Thanh

41:41No, my wife did not come with me at that time. I went alone. And I organized for my wife to follow me a year later through other way. She went to, clandestine, to Cambodia. From Cambodia, she took an airline. Going to Italy. And from Italy, we organize her to go to France. That is easier than to be clandestine passenger on a merchandise boat. So I landed in France at that time 1965 65 and 65 I work in France for a number of years before I went to United States and back to Vietnam.

Quang Do

42:32What did you do in France?

Bui Kien Thanh

42:34Oh, in France first I work in interesting in the collection and sell of antique. Yeah, I love antique, you know, Chinese antique from dynasty, the Ming dynasty, the Han dynasty, a lot of culture in antique there. And I had a friend who is a dealer in antique with a Frenchman. So we worked together and set up a shop in Paris to sell antique for about two years. And after that my wife joined me a year later and she wanted to open a restaurant. So we opened a restaurant for her. It become a very famous restaurant in Paris, called L'Asie Gourmande and it was reported in the French press in the L magazine and so on and with that restaurant my wife can have an independent source of revenue and the kids have place to eat without having to cook for them at home. Yes.

43:55After a few years as antique dealer in France. I went to South of France with a with one of my brother who just graduate architect in Paris and the both of us went to the south of France for a visit and we visit real estate development project in France in south of France. Yeah. And the fate was that I met with a very big developer in the south of France with a lot of project but who run into financial difficulties and most of his project was seized by the bank. So I went to talk with the bank. I negotiate with the bank to let me develop project that were seized and I got agreement from the bank to take over those project to continue development of those project and pay back the bank from the revenue when I sell the land. So that is how I got into real estate development in south of France. One project after another. I took over from a failed project to make a successful project so that the bank can get the money back and also the enterprise that did the work infrastructure. You know, they build the road and they build the phone line, water line and they were stuck in there. So I negotiate with them so that they continue their work. I will pay them when I sell the lot and then pay them back over time. So I did not have to invest a lot of money to buy the land or to do the infrastructure work. I work on agreement with the party involved and that's how I develop real estate in France.

Quang Do

45:57All right. And you went to the US next. Tell us about that.

Bui Kien Thanh

46:03Yeah, after that when my daughter my first daughter graduate from school of medicine in Paris, she was born in 1957 in New York City while I was representative of the central bank. So she has American citizenship and after she graduate from econom medicine in Paris, I want her to do higher study in the US. So I went to the US with her to interview with the hospital in the US for her to do a residency program. After the doctor degree, you do not go into practice right away. You get further training and the US you begin with the three years residency after doctor degree and you become for instance the a specialist in pediatrics you know and after 3 years then you can really work at pediatrics with any hospital under contract.

47:19So I went to the US after 84 to register my daughter into residency program in Tulane University in Louisiana. After 3 years then I visit her further to be fellowship in a university in Chicago. So she completed five years of after graduation in France to become a fellow in neonatology you know to become with pediatrics and neonatology were to take care of the newborn. And those very high training. Actually my daughter completed eight and five 30 years of training to be a fellow and associate professor in medicine. This was how I went back to the state to actually help follow up on that and I went back to AIG again. I was invited by the chairman the same one. But then a new chairman was voted in inviting me back to New York and then sent me to Chicago to be the controller of AIG to see what went wrong in Chicago.

Quang Do

48:56Which year was this?

Bui Kien Thanh

48:59The first controller ever. That was in 1984 85.

Quang Do

49:06Okay. Yeah. Just quickly this I think a lot has happened in Vietnam during that time you know how much of that did you know experience being away from Vietnam.

Bui Kien Thanh

49:17I didn't come back at all from 65 to 91. I was in France and then in the United States but I follow situation in Vietnam through my relationship with the embassy in Paris. I was very friendly with the leadership of the Vietnam embassy. I mean the Socialist Republic of Vietnam embassy in Paris. So I follow up what was going on in Vietnam and then in 1980 81 I received a delegation sent from Hanoi by Mr. Phạm Hùng. To meet me in Paris and to ask me for council advice on how to rebuild Vietnam economy which were then fallen in ruin. Yes. After 75. So that is my other story. The start by coming back to Vietnam and how.

Quang Do

50:20Yeah. I think this is maybe the most important part especially for the country. So what was that process like to return and to help build the country?

Bui Kien Thanh

50:33Well, somehow the leadership in Hanoi learned about my experience and my life work. Yeah. So when the situation Vietnam went very bad, you know, all the people in the south do not have enough right to eat, the whole economy went into ruin. They need to find a way out and they may have got into contact with many people but Mr. Phạm Hùng sent a delegation to meet me in Paris to ask for ideas on how to reconstruct the economy. I Was very friendly. I asked them, why do you come to see me? I'm not a communist. I am what you call a dirty capitalist. So they just laugh and say, "Well, we know all about you. From the time you work with the president Ngô Đình Diệm, your time in New York City and so on as far as intelligence is concerned we are pretty good we know very much about you so don't worry so I said okay so what do we talk about when they say the situation in Vietnam is very bad as how bad I say very bad so I said well why don't you change it I said sure we want to change it we don't know how and that's why we are here maybe you can have some idea to suggestion how we can deal with the situation so that how the conversation start to see and to sum it up I say that your system is the dictatorship of the proletariat dictatorship of the proletariat first dictatorship proletariat is poor people. Okay. But are the basis of your policy?

52:38How can they build a strong country on the basis of a poor people? No way. Yeah. So they say we know that we have expert. So I say we have to make it short. A strong country can only be built on a very prosperous people, rich people. I asked them to consider from Europe to Asia, from ancient time Roma to Tang in China. Where can you find a strong country built on the poor people? No. So I say you must think of making the people rich in order to have a strong country. So that hits right away on question of policy and of ideology. You see, oh they said Mr Bùi. Very difficult for me for us to come back to Hanoi to report what we say making people rich because when we open our mouth to say make people rich we will be thrown out of the Party right away you say I say well I will write for you the paper on a sheet of paper what we talk about you go home and show that to your leader don't talk if you afraid of being thrown out of the party because you make an oral report. Don't make it. I will write down for you just one page of what we're talking about and show them to the cirks of it. If people reach country powerful, if your leadership agree with that, come back and talk to me. If they don't agree with that, I have nothing to talk to you about. So that's how it start. Four months later they came back and say the leadership agree with your idea of making the people rich so that the country become powerful.

Quang Do

54:37A revolution.

Bui Kien Thanh

54:38Yes. The dictatorship thrown out of the window practically proletariat no longer. So from there we meet regularly. Yeah. 80 81 82 83 84 85 five years of discussion so that we understand where we go. End up with the resolution of the sixth congress 1985. Yeah. In which the language we study was actually voted approved by the National Congress of the Communist Party in 1985. Very interesting. If you know Vietnamese, it's very subtle or very strong to define what is the Vietnam economy from now on. What changed from dictatorship or the proletariat to something else? What they call the market economy. Yes. Yeah. So for those who understand Vietnamese, this is interesting Kinh tế Việt Nam là nền kinh tế nhiều thành phần. No longer a state run economy “nhiều thành phần” means no monopoly of the state, “nhiều thành phần” is open for the whole people. No limits. “nhiều” The word “nhiều” is very important.

56:10It encompass a liberty a new found liberty for doing business for the whole people. The whole people now are FREE to enterprise. Are FREE to participate in economic activity. “Kinh tế Việt Nam là nền kinh tế nhiều thành phần” and what else? When you have the product, right? “nhiều thành phần” to make the product. But when you have the product, what you do before you have to distribute to state channel. Yes. And you have would have a book of stamp to go to buy product from distribution center. Okay. No longer. We have to redefine the Economy. “Kinh tế Việt Nam là nền kinh tế nhiều thành phần vận hành theo cơ chế thị trường” operating under the principle of market economy. Yes, market economy no longer monopoly of the state that is now the huge revolution abandoning all these theory in Marxist books. Yeah. “Kinh tế Việt Nam là nền kinh tế nhiều thành phần vận hành theo cơ chế thị trường” operating under the principle of market economy for what? So we have to come further. Vì cái gì? For what?

57:42For what? “Vì dân giàu nước mạnh”. For the people being rich and the country being powerful. Yes.“Vì dân giàu nước mạnh” “Vì dân giàu”. No longer “vô sản”. No longer Proletariat. People must get rich for the country to become powerful. “Vì dân giàu nước mạnh”. And what else? “Dân giàu nước mạnh” what for what for? “Xã hội” The society. How will the society operate “Xã hội công bằng” Equality. “Dân chủ”. Democratic. “Văn minh” Civilized that is the final object of the all the change that we Want for the society that is free that is democratic that is equality for all and to be civilized and not no longer imprisoned in any backward ideology would mean the Vietnam is open to the whole world to learn from the whole world what civilization is about.

59:04Yes. You see that is the revolution at the Sixth Congress. In those world are a complete change of system. Now 30 years now 86 now 26 40 years we make progress but not yet everything that was voted. We make good progress. Yes. And now what happened now? Recently there was a resolution by the Politburo, Resolution 68.

Quang Do

59:37Right. Resolution 68. What did it say?

Bui Kien Thanh

59:42It said that the power of decision and dynamic of the economy belong to the people and to the enterprise no longer the government. Yeah. The government no longer have any decision on how the economy will be run. So what the government do? In the same resolution, it say the government. Nhà nước không quản lý nữa, Nhà nước phục vụ hợp tác để phát triển The state will no longer manage. The state will service. Phục vụ. The state, hợp tác, collaborate. The state help the enterprise to grow. No longer the state manage the economy. The people the enterprise should take over the decision the power on how to develop the economy and the role of the state is to support. To support the enterprise and to support private enterprise.

1:00:58You know 40 years we make some progress. Yes. And now it's belong to the younger generation to pick it up from there and to build Vietnam into really something. Now we can talk about the future Vietnam to something. But I let you ask more question if you wish.

Quang Do

1:01:18I'm just very fascinated by the storytelling because many of my generation we heard of Đổi Mới, the reform. Maybe we almost take it for granted, right? But if you really think through it, this was before our time and how much of a ideological change it was and you know I would be just very curious to understand a bit more like what the process was like. The way you explain it, you wrote a one pager a letter basically. This was submitted to the leadership back then and then each subsequent year they met with you to discuss it and then 85 86 it happened right. So you had a very instrumental influence on that like how difficult was it to make that change.

Bui Kien Thanh

1:02:08I'm very lucky because I'm trusted and whatever I say is listen to and whatever I say that is reasonable and good is adopted you see I'm very happy to be able to be part of the change and the evolution you see and now we are in a situation of where is Vietnam now and where is Vietnam in the future that's interesting right Vietnam today is friendly to all and enemy to none not like before. Of the 193 member of the United Nation not one single country is against Vietnam, the last time there was a vote, Vietnam get 193 out of 193 vote. Interesting, right? Vietnam today have free trade agreement with 60 country in the world. When we say 60 country, we do not see yet the importance of it. Put 60 free trade agreement with 90% of the world GDP. That is how Vietnam today Vietnam has comprehensive agreement with 14 major country in the world.

1:03:30The first time in history any country get a comprehensive cooperation agreement with all the five member of the security council. Yeah. China, United States, France, England and Russia. That is how Vietnam today. And Vietnam where is it today? Vietnam today is the center of what is now known as the Indo-Pacific Economic Area. What is it? It comprise Japan, Korea, China, the ASEAN country, Bangladesh, Pakistan, India, Indo-Pacific economic area that represents 62% of the world population that represents 60% of the world GDP and growing larger than the US. Europe, Russia and all the continent combined and growing at the rate of 5% in China, 8% in Vietnam.

1:04:46Yeah. Whereas the US is growing by 2% and Europe by 1% and so on. So not only this the largest economic area today but growing a very fast pace. And where is Vietnam? Why is Vietnam the center? Two hours fly we cover the whole ASEAN country. Five hour flight from Vietnam we cover from Japan to India. That is how Vietnam with the center geographically. Yeah. And because Vietnam is friendly to all and enemy to none. It is a friend shoring country for all investor around the world. They no longer invest massively in China. Where do they go? They have to find a place. Where the place? Maybe in Japan, maybe in India, but the center is still Vietnam. Yes. And what does Vietnam have geographically? More than 50% of world maritime trade go by Vietnam shore on the Pacific Ocean.

1:06:02All the trade from Europe would go to Singapore and then going up north by the coast of Vietnam before they reach Hong Kong or Japan. And the north south maritime route as well as the east west maritime route it close to the shore of Vietnam by 100 to 200 nautical miles. M you see and how Vietnam become the center of the world maritime traffic beside from the air transfer traffic as we say 5 hours from the whole Indo-Pacific economic area. So by the geographic position and by the diplomatic relation with the whole world, Vietnam is the center of the center of development for the Indo-Pacific area and for the whole world. What does Vietnam have? Not only the Vietnam have good trained people within the country. But we know Vietnam has something like 5 million around the world.

1:07:19Yeah. And maybe a million expert in all field. Yeah. Around the world. IT, Economic whatever you can call it. Only in the world, only three country have such number. One in China. The number of Chinese around the world, right? Yes. Number two is Israel. 5 to 10 million Jew around the world. Vietnam, five million. Yes. Maybe we did not count India yet, but you know very strongly at Vietnam. The situation is correct. The country is open. The future is inviting. I believe that Vietnam will be a very good place for all the diaspora to come back and prosper. Prosper for the home country and prosper for them. If where do they go to go? You go to Silicon Valley. Yeah. We are building a Silicon Valley city in Vietnam today. Yeah. Silicon Highland. Silicon Highland. You have heard about that. It will be an integrated city with development of IT AI. It will be a city for education where we will invite the leading university in the world to come and a city for health. Yeah. What we call the Blue zone in the world.

1:08:55The five blue zone for health. People to live well and to live long life. That is what Vietnam can offer. 5 10 years, 50 years, 100 years down the road. Yeah. You see, Vietnam will be one of the leading country in the world from what we see. The opportunity there, the policy is there. Now we need people to put hand together to work together and I see that the opening authority are very open and welcoming. Now it belong to all of us to get together to execute what the resolution 68 say. Yes, we are the master of the country and the government is to support us. Who have to make they do their work by contributing to develop the country in every field that we are expert of and we have so many expert not only in Vietnam but around the world.

Quang Do

1:10:03I'm smiling because it's very in line with what we try to build with the overseas Vietnamese community in those five six million diaspora we try to mobilize them we try to connect them and also open up the door to Vietnam and I would love to talk more about this, but maybe very quickly about your own overseas Vietnamese story, your own return after 86. Can you talk us through what happened then?

Bui Kien Thanh

1:10:31Yeah, I began very naturally when I decided to come back after 90 from 80 to 86 resolution number six. From 86 to 91, the Vietnamese struggling to develop relationship with the US with no success. Then I was invited to come back to Hanoi to talk directly with the leadership and to be closer to the decision center. So I decided to come back to Hanoi in November 80, November 91. 91. What did I do? You see, first thing I do when I come back in 91 was to ask the government to free all the officer and civil servant of the South Vietnamese government still in detention. 16,000 of them were still in detention from 75 to 91. So I asked them, you want to develop a relationship in the world and this officer have family around the world and the United States cannot sit down with you in any discussion if the people who support them are still in jail.

1:12:02Morally they cannot do that. So you have to free these people in order to have opportunity to talk with the United States and opportunity to get in touch with the Vietnamese diaspora around the world. Right? This was a discussion that it take very long but the officer representing the government was the vice minister of security of the interior to make a report to the Politburo and 20 later when I was back in France he informed me that the Politburo had made a decision to liberate these people. So then the decision I say how you liberate them or are you still keep some of them because of this or that reason. The decision come back a week later we leave everybody not keeping anybody. So my friend in the US department they asked me asked them if they would let them go if they would let them immigrate to the United States or elsewhere. I asked the question and the respond back Vietnam will let them go wherever they want. The question back will they allow their family to go?

1:13:34I asked the question and the answer back from the why from the every side pono if anyone wished to follow them the government would allow anybody who wish to go to join them so that the United States at that time they voted a budget to welcome Vietnamese diaspora Vietnam prisoner at that time with their family and from 91 to 92 they all out of prison. From 92 to 95 300,000 member were allowed to emigrate, multiple went to the United States and the US had a budget to help them resettle in the US. You know that $500 per person to resettle in the US. That is the first thing I did when I get back in 91. Yet the former officer and civil servant of the Vietnam Republic to be liberated.

1:14:52When next the US asked me to help find the MIA (Missing in Action). When I came back, there was already a mission of MIA headed by General Vessey already have an office in Hanoi, but they didn't get very far. So when I came back in November 91, my mother conferred asked me to come and contact the MIA/POW office in Hanoi to see what I can help. You see? Yeah. Very interesting. They had very good personnel at that time. I remember the personnel of the United State is all fluently Vietnamese. And we talk about how to progress. And one of the subject he mentioned were that the DIA has information that in the army museum. There is a place in there that keep secret information about the whereabout of the MIA or the missing in action that was shot down or killed in battle and so on. So I am told that there are 5,000 pieces of information in that section of the army museum that the MIA mission would have like to have access to.

1:16:33So I report back to my Vietnamese site and say that that's what the US would like your help for. The situation is very long, but it end up with the Vietnamese government allowing an American reporter to scan all the 5,000 pieces of secret information. Yeah. Where the plane was shut down and so on and all that was sent back to the US helping the POW/MIA find the mission action. It's very interesting because in December 1992, I think I was invited to this headquarter of the MIA/POW in Hanoi for a special occasion. I said what is that? So the colonel don't even say. When you come and you will see. So I came and there was a phone call from Honolulu by an assistant of President Bush calling the commander of MIA in Vietnam and asked him you are sure you have the 5,000 pieces of information that you promised to the colonel said yes sir we have them.

1:17:58So on the other side you are responsible for that. So the colonel say yes sir they are in the camp I'm responsible. So with that time the MIA mission confirmed to President Bush that they have the information to try to locate the missing action. At that time Bush decide to do the first lifting of the embargo partial lifting of the embargo at that time allowing American enterprise to sign contract with Vietnam but wait until the total lifting of the embargo to execute. But anyway, that's the first lifting of the embargo by Bush as a result of cooperation between Vietnam and the US to find the Missing In Action. That is one thing that I did the first time back in Vietnam. And later there are other thing that are very practical. One day Mr. Kiệt did ask me to come open up a map of North Vietnam and show me this is Yunnan in China.

1:19:30The railroad or the road down to Hải Phòng is 880 kilometers to Hải Phòng by road and Yunnan to the east of China over the mountain is maybe two or more thousand to go there. Yeah. So the shortest route for China Yunnan southwest of China being developed then 91 9 to go from Yunnan to Hải Phòng and the prime minister said that Mr. Thành help us develop the Hải Phòng port. I want you to find an American group, a powerful American group to come in to develop Hải Phòng port to plan the big American flag in Hải Phòng in order to deter China. Threat but yet opening the port for China opportunity to access to the sea of Vietnam. That is the subject of the discussion. Fate was that I was the advisor to AIG in Vietnam and the chairman of AIG in Vietnam Maurice R. Greenberg in New York joined the company in 1960 and I was with the company 1959. I was one year senior than him as AIG leader and anyway he named me senior advisor for AIG in Vietnam. So I came back to him with the file from Prime Minister Võ Văn Kiệt and showing to him look Vietnam would like to invite you to invest to develop the port in Hải Phòng.

1:21:31This is 1,000 hectares of land for at least for 50 years. The lease term is really very light. Yeah. So you invest to develop the port in Hải Phòng you are the first investor in Vietnam and whatever Vietnam has to offer in as far as privileged foreign investor you will get it so we don't discuss we did discuss very long after about more than 15 minutes less than half an hour Greenberg shook hand with me and say Mr. Bui, we'll do it. That is an investment of $500 million in 93. The biggest investment for any American group at that time anywhere in Southeast Asia. And that opened up the opportunity and group like Sumitomo and other group came in later on to sign all the investment project in North Vietnam and that's how the economy of North Vietnam got a shot in the arms to grow.

1:22:51You see that but is something that it's opportunity for me because I was a leader of the AIG group. I have history of success with the group. Yeah. And that I have the potential to work with the top leadership of the top financial service insurance group. So all these things combine like fate. Yes. To make it happen. See that is one story. The other story is also very interesting. One day I was invited by Prime Minister Võ Văn Kiệt again. He said anh Thành we have a big problem. I said what kind of problem? An American company, American oil company signed a contract with China to develop a block of oil on Vietnam continental shelf. So here our sovereignty is at stake. If this American company come in to drill and our continental shelf, how will we react? So I said well stop them from coming in.

1:24:14So I said how to stop them from coming in? While we are in a very poor relation with China, no relation with the United States subject to the embargo? How do you stop American company coming in? Why do they have a contract with China? Okay. So after about a few years of discussion we agree on the line of action we said we have to use international law. For this we have to demonstrate that this area is under the sovereignty of Vietnam. Yeah. If you can demonstrate that we would have the opportunity to talk to American side that your company is trying to violate international law signing with China. That cannot happen. And if anything hot happened in the Pacific, this is 50% of the international maritime rule and the Seventh Fleet, responsible for maintaining the peace here. How do we deal with this if certainly the Chinese and the Vietnamese navy shot at each other? So we have to prevent this from happening. The story is very long, but we find a solution for that. So prime minister Võ Văn Kiệt said Mr Thành please help - How you contact the US to get this thing stop. Yeah. So we design a strategy for that.

1:26:00I say number one we have to decide to hire an American law firm to study the foundation of international law and the foundation of Vietnam's claim of sovereignty. Yes. On the continental shelf, we must hire an American law firm, not any law firm. Okay? And then what we do I will go to the to the state department to present the situation and to ask American support to help us hire an American firm. So the strategy has been drawn and the how to develop that. Prime Minister Kiệt instruct the foreign ministry to write a letter to whom it may concern and gave it to me to bring to the state department.

Quang Do

1:26:58What did it say?

Bui Kien Thanh

1:27:00I say that the Vietnamese government wishes to assist American government to find American Missing In Action and we cannot do that but we would like to be able to assist on that without asking for any counterpart. Yeah. So I went with that letter to see my contact at the department of state show to them and they read it with surprise but said this is a very positive the Vietnamese government is willing to assist the American government to find Missing In Action without any reciprocity without any condition but don't you know the rule of diplomacy that always something to return right when you visit somebody to bring a gift normally they would receive a gift back. Yeah, that is the rule of diplomacy. So with that the State Department Officer asked me Mr. Bui really very much appreciate this gesture from the Vietnamese government but then what can we do for you that open the whole field what can we do for you I explained to them the situation that there is an American oil company signing contract to China to develop explore an oil field on Vietnamese sovereignty and we need to defend Vietnam need to defend itself with international law. And Vietnam would like to hire an American law firm to make an indepth study of Vietnam root of legitimacy about the claim for sovereignty on the continental shelf. We want to hire American number one in the world to do this study.

1:29:16They shake their head and look at me sure we would support that but what can we do for you I said the Vietnamese government want to hire American firm & Vietnam can cannot do that because it's under the embargo so what can what can we do is that the American lift the embargo for the Vietnamese to hire that American law firm, so they look at each other and they cut back to me saying Mr. Bui. We fully support you but we have no power. The state department have no power to lift the embargo. I asked them who had the power to lift the embargo. He say only the president had the power to lift the embargo. I said well then you should report to the president because that is where the decision should be made. They look at each other and I asked me, "Mr. Bui, how long will you be in Washington?" That day was a Tuesday. So I told them, "I won't be until Friday." So they say, "Okay, we'll get back to you." Thursday they call. I said, I said, "Mr. Bui, we have good news for you." The president agreed.

1:30:41I was amazed. Short of rest. So I think that thank you so much. How do we proceed? So we set up a meeting where I came back to the state department to talk about the detail. Yeah. I say now that the president decided how do we implement this decision? They gave me some advice finally going down to us picking an American law firm and that American law firm would apply for a lifting of the embargo for them to execute the contract. And the president would approve that it's not something for Vietnam but for the American law firm. So I ask now please help me what law firm will you suggest? They said they check the head quarter, Mr Bui we can't do that because that was unfair with all the law firm I said no I don't ask you to help me pick one, but give me a list of the law firm that you think I have the capacity to do that and we will examine their credential for finally they gave me seven names I brought the seven names back to Hanoi and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs picked out three names and we wrote invitation to invite those three law firm to hand off interview. I came for one day interview and the ministry of foreign affair picked one, Covington & Burling. The top law firm in Washington DC with a lot of experience working not only in international law but relation with the congress and so on. So Vietnam signed a contract with Covington & Burling in Hanoi gave them the mission to study the basis of international law of Vietnam sovereignty on the continental shelf and especially on the Paracel and Spratly Archipelago that was in 93. Yeah. It took them two years to study and in May 95 they made a report to the government of Vietnam on that.

1:33:06With all the international documentation, historical proof of Vietnam sovereignty and you know in July 1995 for the normalization of relation but the government of Vietnam wait until after the normalization to instruct government to go to the next step and the next step was the publication of that report on The international law gazette this is not any country law. This international law gazette does not belong to any country but is a powerful legal source for the whole world. Yeah. So, Vietnam established its sovereignty that way and after that the in the American oil company just withdrew. The United State government actually informed them very quickly that the United States cannot defend any firm that operate on territory that are in conflict of sovereignty. So by that the company withdrew and since then no other American company have any contract with China to develop on the continental shelf of Vietnam and that's how Vietnam reaffirm its sovereignty on the continental shelf today and the face of China because China has no legal basis to make any claim.

1:34:55Very interesting some of my contact in the various ministry who went to meet in international forum concerning security in Southeast Asia and they met with their counterpart in China and the Chinese people shake hand with them say we are very surprised that you did this and whether we did not do it and many other countries in Southeast Asia very feel very happy and comfortable that Vietnam did such thing that China could morally do what they. You see so many other story line which I I help very discreetly the government of Vietnam now I'm involved in the development of International Financial Center that may take maybe another 50 years to get really fully developed we will have to get started yes and I am getting back again on the Vân Phong port shipping project. That was decided in 2006 20 years ago but if you remain there with nothing in I will have to get back to that to continue discreetly I'm not making any noise but I have a good relationship within my work in New York with my work in Wall Street with a network everywhere personal and professional relationship with a very influential community and people especially the Jewish community in New York City.

Quang Do

1:36:47I think you you're operating discreetly. So I guess a lot of the diaspora actually don't know of you really. I didn't know. And I'm very glad we got introduced and I think the initial project we talked through was the IFC in Saigon and I'm very glad we got connected because as you said it will take a lot of time. It's a very interesting time now for Vietnam and then the next generation will need to continue what we have started. I would love to hear more about what you think the role of that diaspora can be for Vietnam and your views on Vietnam's future as well. Very quickly though to kind of learn about your life and wrap that up. We've talked through the 20th century all the way when you know supported Đổi Mới, when you supported normalization what then in 21st century you've settled in Vietnam you've moved back all the way what in the last 20 26 years you know how did you see Vietnam how proud are you of the progress and you know do you think everything is moving in the right direction.

Bui Kien Thanh

1:37:53I'm very happy with the progress it's not maybe what many people expected Vietnam is making progress right at what speed? Well, we cannot really go back to history and say that we should push it more. Yes, I'm very happy today that we are at where we are and we need to look in the future and work for the future and the future in Vietnam I could share with you is very huge the position of Vietnam in the world. Yeah. And Vietnam has a good diplomacy to be friend with all and enemy to none that will help us develop. So I hope that the newer generation, your generation will pick up the work and carry on to success. There's no reason why we cannot achieve more than we have already achieved. And I very strongly believe that in the next 50 years, Vietnam will be a major player, not only in Asia, Yeah. But in the whole world.

Quang Do

1:39:04We've talked through the favoring factors leading up to the growth and rise of Vietnam. What do you think is required of the people and of the diaspora for this to happen?

Bui Kien Thanh

1:39:14But you know, Vietnam now have a very good labor force and a very good intellectual community. I'm very happy to see kids of 18, 19 year old in cafe like this shaking into IT AI, right? And talk to each other in language that we never knew before. And that is sign of very interesting and exceptional progress. Not many country are in that position. It's a free country for intellectual development you see and our kids are very good at that. Our kids are welcome around the world. When I see the result of scholarship application this year from them with American university, I'm delighted to see how many of our kids are admitted to the leading school before scholarship for four years. M you see and how Vietnam engineer are invited to work not only in Asia but all the way into India and all the way to Silicon Valley. Yes. So you see how the world is open to us and how our youth today is really grown up to that challenge. Well, I think that we're on the right track and I hope to live another 20 years at least to see progress but I think 20 years from now you will see a complete different Vietnam.

Quang Do

1:41:00Yeah. Yeah. What do you think are some challenges or things that could.

Bui Kien Thanh

1:41:05Certainly there are challenge what challenge for private people like us challenge for the governing authority and I'm happy that the newer generation of leadership has grown very well into the resolution number at number six to be really shaping the destiny of Vietnam through intervening into the whole world. Dân chủ Công bằng Văn Minh, to get integrated into the civilized world. Yeah, I think that is happening and happening very well and we that Vietnam will really grow and I expect Vietnam 20 years from now will grow much higher than even Japan. Japan will grow with 1 or 2% a year. Vietnam will grow at least 5, 6, 7, 8%. You will see.

Quang Do

1:42:10Yeah. And we hope you will be around to, you know, to witness, you know, all that change. And, I think we're right in the middle of it. The pace of change is, you know, fascinating now. And I think, it has been for the last few two or three decades.

Bui Kien Thanh

1:42:28You know, we can really talk into detail some of the thing that are in preparation not made today, but we have other opportunity to go into each case. Yeah. Where Vietnam is strong as a player in the world. Where are Vietnam strong point and Vietnam potential to be one of the top leader in the future?

Quang Do

1:42:54If you could talk to the 5 million plus overseas Vietnamese diaspora, you know, what message would you tell them tell us?

Bui Kien Thanh

1:43:04I think that Vietnam is a country that belong to all, I say, to all the diaspora and what I would like Vietnam to develop its a policy like in Israel. You know Israel had 10 million Jews around the world and 10 million Jews in Israel. Yeah. But the policy for Israel is to recognize any Jews anywhere in the world as citizen of Israel. You don't have to live in Israel. As long as you have a birth certificate showing that your father, your grandfather, your grandmother, whoever are of Israel origin, you are Jews and you are Israel citizen. What does it mean? That mean you are free to come back to Israel without any passport without any visa because the country belong to you in the same way that belong to other Israel in Israel around the world. I hope to see Vietnam development in that way. That Vietnam is a country for all Vietnamese anywhere in the world and every Vietnamese anywhere in the world is Vietnamese with full right and privilege as Vietnamese citizen. We together will develop the country and make Vietnam really a real significant power around the world because we are there in 103 country around the world they are Vietnamese.

1:44:49As long as they are Vietnamese citizen and also citizen of the country where they are located we work together. So international cooperation between the Vietnamese citizens around the world within all the country that they are living in. You can see how Vietnam become very important as far economy or any field is concerned. That's what I hope for. I think that is opportunity and there no reason why we cannot do that. It's on our hand.

Quang Do

1:45:25I agree. Yeah. Very quickly, you know, for a young overseas Vietnamese out there, say 20, 25 years, you know, how would you advise them to contribute to Vietnam and get more involved and in touch with the country?

Bui Kien Thanh

1:45:41Make themselves informed. If they in the United States, go into library to read about Vietnam. And if they are back in Vietnam, go into the countryside to see how the whole people work together. Not stay there in the city and be caught up in traffic. Yes. But go and see to see the mountain, the crowd, the people, the rice field. You have to see the country in order to really love the country. Tìm hiểu non sông để tăng lòng yêu nước. You have to know the country and they can do that. They can come back to Vietnam every year, every other years and going to their native village visiting far away country in the hill in the mountain to get in the immerse into the country become one with the country and the people.

Quang Do

1:46:44A final question. At this stage of life, what brings you the greatest sense of fulfillment and happiness?

Bui Kien Thanh

1:46:53I'm very happy every day. You know, I don't feel anything that will not make me happy and there's no reason. We have to be happy. You everybody see life in a very positive way. Forget about whatever that make you feel sad. So well life is life. Life is every day the sun go up. Every day there is work to do. Every day that you can do to contribute to your country. Every day you can do to contribute to help your villages. Well so beautiful. There's no reason why anybody should feel unhappy. If anything unhappy come up. You can look at the other happy side. Yes. And you will see life in a different light.

Quang Do

1:47:47Bác Thành, thank you so much. Wonderful closing words and you know I hope we stay together to collaborate on this and to see the country rise and do our parts. Thank you so much.

Bui Kien Thanh

1:48:00Yeah, we'll talk again. Yes.