From Harvard and BCG to Vietnam CEO.

Lan Doan

0:00It started with just really trying to know what it means to be American and, like, to really try to fit in, right? Like, it's like 18-year-old. And when I came to the US for the first time, I didn't really have that strong understanding of who I am.

Quang Do

0:13Most people struggle with is not having really that clarity between what is the better choice. So the options are often not so clear in terms of what is more favorable. And then it's coupled with that feeling of not really being sure what we really want, especially if you're earlier in your career.

0:30Hi Lan, tell us a bit about yourself. What's your life in a nutshell?

Lan Doan

0:35Sure, hi, Quang, good to see you. About myself, well, I am the founder of Asla. We provide executive training and coaching, and we are also developing solutions that make living with a purpose and clarity more accessible to people. Maybe a bit of background before this. I am an ex-CEO of a startup. I'm also an ex-consultant, an MBA, and I'm a mom. So I'm a mom to a little boy and also a cat. And yes, a wife. So that's a nutshell about me.

Quang Do

1:17Thank you and can you tell us a bit more about where you grow up? What was your upbringing like and then where you studied and what were some of your career? Milestones.

Lan Doan

1:25Yeah, I grew up in Vietnam, in the countryside with my grandparents actually. My parents were there in my childhood, but they were either studying abroad most of time or working in Hanoi. So I was spending a lot of time with my grandparents. And yeah, so I grew up, like part of my childhood grew up in the countryside and like chasing cows and stuff. And then, you know, when I was seven, we moved, I moved to Hanoi to live with my parents. And that's also a great, was an interesting transition to, you know, to move to the city. And I would count it as a big transition on top of the one where I moved to the States to study and then moved to the States for college at 18. And that also started my new identity as a foreign student and building my world view. It's very heavily influenced by liberal arts education. By the Northeast viewpoints, et cetera.

Quang Do

2:41And what did you go to study and how was that experience like as a Vietnamese foreign student?

Lan Doan

2:48Yeah, so I studied at Colgate University. So that's my college. And then after that, after a couple of years, I went to Harvard as an MBA. And I think it was very different in those two times, because when I went to Colgate, that was my first time ever being abroad. And I intentionally chose to study in the US because I thought it was the furthest away from Vietnam in terms of geographic, but also very different, right? Like in system, way of thinking. So I was very intrigued by the difference. I wanted to really expand my mind the best I could. So I think the study in the States went to a liberal arts college. And Colgate University was in like upstate New York, which is like the most rural you can get, I guess. So it was a huge difference like moving from, know, bustling Hanoi, right? And before I mentioned, was in the countryside in Vietnam, but there were definitely more people and like more animals even when I grew up. But yeah, so going to the States and then my college education was to me like it's marked exploration, like the stretching of the mind the best I could.

4:08And it was, it's challenging. Was, but it was both, it was a lot of fun, but it was also really tough back then. And I think the second time I was sort of international students, it was not that international anymore. Like before that, I was already living in the States for like close to eight years or 10 years. And to me, like the second time when I went to MBA, like I felt that was less of an exploration, but it was more of a deepening of my identity. And that was when, you know, I... I felt very strongly about my identity as a Vietnamese person and sort of trying to find a mix, right, find a combination between, you know, building all my adults in the States but the heritage of a Vietnamese person versus in college, I just really just try to adapt. Really try to learn English and understand what's going on and stuff.

Quang Do

5:20I would love to go deeper in into this journey of identity and Vietnamese How was the journey like for you actually and you said you had the first phase and then second phase was there anything in between or did you stay in the US throughout.

Lan Doan

5:26I stayed in the US since college and went to MBA and then came back to Vietnam, also another decision point. But yeah, about that identity, I think it started with just really trying to know what it means to be American and really just try to fit in. I was like an 18 -year-old and... When I came to the US for first time, I didn't really have that strong understanding of who I am, who I was even. And I just tried to learn and to explore. And even after I left college, was years of exploration. I was lucky enough to find jobs in like, and was able to move jobs. I pretty much moved jobs every like one to two years and moved cities. You know, I was in DC, Boston and New York within the first five years of my career because I was that curious and eager to explore. And it's very unstructured exploration, would say. Now looking back, I was just like curious, I've learned everything. I took the CFA even though I wasn't even pursuing anything in finance just because I was curious about it. I was like doing... Toastmaster, I was actually taking acting classes on Broadway, all those things.

6:43But I think throughout those explorations, I start to reflect and then there was just a common theme that kept rising up. Obviously, I think when a person tries on many different things and trying to... Sort of adopt different identity, I would say. Because I was, I feel like it was a different person in the CFA class versus in my improv class. Like I didn't tell anyone in my improv classes I was also doing the CFA. I think you're trying to find a common theme there. And there's certain, there are many things I explored and found out by myself. And one of those, it wasn't rational, it's just something that seemed to matter is that I became I became more, I had more conviction when I told people that I'm from Vietnam. Before that, there was a time when I wasn't sure about the reaction people would get when I shared with them, I was from Vietnam, from Hanoi, et cetera. But I learned to embrace it and to be proud of it.

Quang Do

7:47And you said it was very challenging for you. What kind of challenges were those and how did you overcome these?

Lan Doan

7:53I mean the part, it was challenging to adapt, right? But probably the, I mean, I think it was somewhat terrifying to, you know, in the midst of like believing and adopting so many different forms and like set up and settle on a form or an essence. Of self that you think that's it. Sort of like settling down, right? At the beginning it was a little scary to feel like I was settling down because I was so excited to explore. But then settling down was also, but it felt right to settle down and then I gradually became more comfortable with adopting or embracing a... One essence or like a one core of self that felt the most right. And you know, it's just sort of me saying no or giving up, you know, many other things that I would also still be curious about.

Quang Do

8:45And then during that sort of confusion and being challenged, what did you do to find clarity for yourself?

Lan Doan

8:52So I think this is what I would attribute to what my period where I was spending with my grandparents like a very early childhood, right? When I felt like because my grandparents back then, mean, they was in their 60s when they were raising me. I think they told me, I mean, they shared with me a lot. About doing things that are consistent to deep down who you are and your core values. And at the end of the day, the core values were what mattered. And I don't think back then I understood, It's just pretty much a four-year-old and hanging out with my grandparents. And once in a while, they would obviously tell stories and I would just like, okay, it sounds interesting. But it felt like at some point, like it came up and such wisdom was super helpful for me to focus on. And.

Quang Do

9:53How do you do that, you think?

Lan Doan

9:56Well, now I think the MBA application process was actually really helpful for me to find a framework or learn the ways of figuring it out more effectively. Because you had to write those essays, you had to connect your life back, forward and forward. I think before it was a lot of just reflection. But I, and I would say that the trials exploration is actually helpful as well. Like you never know, you know, it's like, you know, I could sit and just think about who I was, but it's actually when I started getting exposed to different things and like learned from how I reacted and how I acted, what fascinated me, what I didn't like when I was. In a different situation, different groups of people doing different things, that's really helpful for me to have a clear definition of myself that was more real, more grounded, to have evidence rather than just something that's in my head.

Quang Do

10:51And then what made you decide to move back to Vietnam?

Lan Doan

10:55Yeah, that one was also a quite, just something that felt resonant. Think that start with like the core values and something that whenever I think about it, it just feel right. And it wasn't like that from the beginning. Think when I was, when it just started out college, I was like. This is amazing, you I love New York, I love Boston, this is where I'm gonna spend the rest of my life. But at some point it just, I think obviously I think I had to experience it to realize that it wasn't it. To realize that there was still a part of me wanted to be home. Like whenever I think about going home, I just notice a sense of like familiarity, care. Detachment and it became clear and clearer that it's just somewhere I'm meant to go back to, like was meant to be. But I mean, I'm still not the type who will just go with it. When I make the choice, when I felt like it became clear that I would want to go back to Vietnam at a certain point, then also being more rational about it, like, you know, think about what's physical, what's practical, when would be the right time, whether this is a good decision economically, et cetera. And it so happened that like, you know, when I came back in 2016, Vietnam, still now a great place to grow.

12:17That I would be able to contribute and grow my career when I'm in this environment. So it's both an emotional, I think it starts with a sort of emotional choice, but then it's supplemented by a lot of rational thoughts and strategy planning, et cetera.

Quang Do

12:44Can you walk us a bit through the process of then actually deciding was this during the MBA or did you decide sort of at the end of the MBA and then move back first or did you create that opportunity while at the MBA and then move?

Lan Doan

12:52Yeah, it was before MBA. Think that's process of also writing the application that it became clear and clear to me. So that I love, I love the application process. It was actually a great process for me to find self clarity. And it was funny because people were like, you just say that you would go back to Vietnam because that's a typical story for people who apply to MBA. You know, I'm going to go back. And build a greater place and contribute and stuff. I really meant it. So in terms of like, if you think about a startup, that's the vision and mission that I have. Really want it, it's not rational for the vision and mission, right? It's something that I care about and something that I want to dedicate my time to, really do good things back. Where I came from. But then I did do some like test. I did get an internship in Vietnam during my MBA summer just to see whether something feasible, whether something practical, figure out other potential logistic and then practical elements I need to. Pay attention to things I wasn't aware of. I did talk to a lot of people. And yeah, through that summer internship, I also chose an internship at consulting company, BCG, where I ended up spending a couple years there as a move back.

14:14I think that was a smart transition to move back to Vietnam from learning perspective, economics perspective, impact perspective. And I loved the summer internship. I also fell in love. I met my husband, my now husband. So it seems like you have enough information to pursue your goal, your something, the vision mission. So then they make the full-time choice of moving back. When I moved back, actually started a nonprofit. And that's also a learning experience as well. Think like work with nonprofit and education was also something that helped me. It's really helped me understand what value I wanted to contribute here. Know, beyond, you know, the big space is like being in Vietnam. But like what's the more specific city of it? And how do I fit into this whole thing. So I think through that nonprofit, I learned I care about human development, but probably not a great fit for the nonprofit space in Vietnam. And that's also just new data, new information that I collected to sort of fill out my framework on the vision mission and then all the practicality things that was relevant of building my path.

Quang Do

15:40Can you tell a bit more about that journey then from consulting in Vietnam to your next role? How did that came about?

Lan Doan

15:48Yeah, mean, I think consulting was such a good experience and to me it was the best choice to make the transition to Vietnam. When I wasn't consulting, I just do whatever projects in Vietnam, so, you know, public sector, digital transformation, retail, etc. And my goal... Was to find the opportunity space that also could be good for me post-consulting. And yeah, I think the tech space was certainly something that's fascinating. It's also in trend, but it's also fascinating for me, for my growth, for my curiosity. And the opportunity, so after MBA, I joined Taptap as a CEO and I built the business from you know, from scratch to 120 employees. You know, this is one of the largest coalition loyalty in Vietnam, the JV with UOB Bank and VIG Investment Group. And Yeah, I just loved, I really loved the opportunity to be with people that I really admired and also to build something to me mattered and to build up the team.

17:09So yeah, it's just like, it's just like the Taptap opportunity was a deepening, I would say. It's like a deepening of, you know, my, of my identity of like someone who add value in this local market. Who want to drive up innovation, who want to drive up the quality of the work, and also someone who want to just continue developing people. The team development is also something that, to me, gels with my interest in education. But through a more practical channel and it's probably more relevant to my experience.

Quang Do

17:48How was this transition for you from consultant to now leading a company and being the chief executive officer?

Lan Doan

17:56I would say interestingly, people ask about those transition. Back then was like transition to Vietnam and then transition to consulting to chief executive and now it's like from chief executive to founder in a field, a new field. I think I treat them as I treat all those transitions as in probably like a problem, like a problem, like a strategic problem that I need to solve. So what is the goal? What success looks like? That's probably the first most important thing to identify. And then in order to make it happen, like what are the elements of the framework that I need to? To make it happen. So I think for all those transitions, there's certainly a lot of things to learn, but I feel like as long as there's a framework around it, there's a approach around it, there's a clarity about why you're doing this, what success means to you, and then the clarity of what are the building blocks that you would need to make it a success. It becomes just another problem-solving process. And I think probably the hardest part is to be very clear about what success and be very honest with yourself about what success means.

19:15And then keep updating your framework, right? Because transitioning from consulting to leading a tech business. You might have an idea of what the framework is, but then as you learn, as you experience, you might need to change it. And then probably the hardest part is to be very flexible about changing and be humble, to know, right, sort of to be aware of what you don't know, you don't know, and then just like keep learning it and like be okay with the mistakes that you made and just keep looking forward. So yeah, so I think that's...

Quang Do

19:49A very... Consultant way of looking at things. So I so I do think it was a good training for you like really having a crisp problem definition and then Defining your own hypothesis, but updating it along the way as you iterate right and then really defining the success Factors, I think you touched on what motivated you to be leading Taptap and to transition there have you ever lost your motivation along the way and.

Lan Doan

20:19It is, yeah.

Quang Do

20:19What did you do to regain it if you lost it?

Lan Doan

20:24Yeah, I think I mean not just at Taptap I think Throughout there are always movements of doubts and I think for me, I consider my motivation should combine both the inner drive and external drive, right? Like more intrinsic and extrinsic, I would say. And the stronger both of them are, I think the better. You know, I think... I think I was leading Taptap during COVID. You know, and I was also having a small child. I started with like when my child was six months. And there are moments when I was like, especially when he was sick, like, you know, I was like, I just want to... I just want to be able to spend 100 % of my time with him. And those moments, I would say I had to, yeah, I think recall the intrinsic drive of what I was doing it for. I wasn't doing it for... Being able to get away from my son, definitely not, right? I wasn't doing it for a milestone. I was doing it for my own growth. I was doing it for the product that I think would be helpful for the businesses. I was also doing it, I think part of it was because I want to be a good role model for my children.

21:44Then you were like, okay, then what would it mean for my action day to day? So that was helpful. I think the other thing is extrinsic motivations. I think sometimes when that drive wasn't super clear, mean, there obviously is easily your emotion could also cloud your judgment. There's an extrinsic as in the accountability to the team, right? And also the system that it created, the discipline, the muscle, the work ethic that we build along the way. You can't just leave. You can't just let whatever happen to the work that you're responsible for. I think that factor of extrinsic motivation by setting a It's also, it's like complimentary and both of them combined can help you weather the impacts, right, that might chip away your motivation. Obviously the inner motivation to me should be the guiding light, like it should pull you. But then the extrinsic is something that's sort of you set up. And you build a muscle so that at some point whether the magnetic field is a little weaker for whatever reason you got distance away and this thing can push you along the way that you can still keep moving.

Quang Do

23:07Very interesting. What I do see is a lot of fresh grads or more junior people will be more driven by extrinsic factors and then as they go through their career build up this more intrinsic which I feel often comes a bit later once you know your family comes into play and your priorities start to change and then you are driven by other things. Do you agree?

Lan Doan

23:30Yeah, yeah, and I think to be fair, like I coached recent graduates and I think they shuffled to find that intrinsic motivation simply because they have so little information. I think it's similar to like asking a person who never date who's your ideal husband, right? And then since they've never dated, like the perception of it was like either influenced. By what they saw in movies and stuff. And there's very little conviction or clarity of what it was, which is fine. Think that's the whole, that's why the exploration is going to be very fun and very important.

Quang Do

24:06And how do you coach your coachees to find that for themselves?

Lan Doan

24:12I mean, depends. Most of the lots of coachees that I work with are people who've had some experience. So then they have a little input, right? Like people who've dated a little bit and became more realistic and have some idea of who they are and what they like. That's more typical and unique to themselves. We usually, I there are various techniques about it. There's reflection techniques or visualization techniques, exposure, reaction, like adopting different perspectives and seeing what feels right for you. Generally finding the intrinsic motivation is something that's intuition driven, very like feelings driven because it's not something that's rational. And I think the most important thing is that I try to hold for my coachees is that a lot of my coachees are people super rational, right? So they rationalize through their inner values, either as, they think that should be, that the way that should be, or they want it to be like that for whatever reason. And I the most important thing is just, you know, just have the courage to embrace who you are and have the conviction. About it. That's probably the most important things that I hope I could bring to my coachees.

Quang Do

25:31It's very interesting. And can we talk a bit about how you then transitioned from CEO and Taptap into becoming a coach? What drove that decision?

Lan Doan

25:42Yeah, it was so fun because, so yeah, I think like my career, right, there was like a period of exploration, like unstructured exploration and like have no form, like no clarity about who I was. And then, you know, I think starting from MBA and then even, you know, after Taptap, was a time when I'm like deepening and in. Growing that very clear identity that I have for myself a clear priorities and stuff And now it's a period when I feel like I want it for other people as well. Okay, I feel like the drive To help other people to find clarity and find purpose is something that does various just like and keep getting pulled towards it.

Quang Do

26:27And then more generally, how do you think people can manage when their current career choice is no longer what they want and how do you typically make decisions when and how to change?

Lan Doan

26:39Yeah, interesting questions. Very, I think, it's like, yeah, the main concerns of a lot of people. I would say that, like, I think it's very common for people to have these questions. I kept telling people that, like, I feel like every five years, you probably face with the same questions. And people were like, no, now it's like every six months. I was like, okay, then you really need a framework to think about it. I think maybe come back to the intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. So, you know, that alignment between what you want and what the role provided. So whether it's change because what you want change, which I think the piece a lot of time for me, like what I want change, my values change. I care about different things that I grew along my career, my lifestyle, my age. Sometimes because the role, right, no longer provided it, the role changed. But either way, I think that's time to reassess that value alignment. And then I think you should decide when whether there start to be a misalign and then when that misalign is big enough, then it's probably time to think about changing. But then just being rational and practical. And you shouldn't just be there.

27:55So that values are always that feasibility and practicality factors that you need to consider as well. Like I would ask people of like, you have other practical constraints? Like you shouldn't ignore it. Because changing, moving is hard enough and then other practical constraints might kill that pull, make it super difficult. So yeah, you should take into that consideration. If it's not yet aligned. Then find a way to make it align before you make the decision. You should feel it, but also should rationalize it. You have to sort of, yeah, you should have a strong resonant feelings about, this is not what I want and I want a different thing. But then you also be very strategic into your path. Of getting there. So yeah, both, you know, I think both the values alignment consideration and also the practical consideration that should drive people to that choice or to the plan to get that choice.

Quang Do

29:03Interesting and how would you say how can you balance that? Feeling of Deciding between okay. This is maybe just a slight feeling of I should give up Perhaps I should persist a bit longer versus okay. This is clearly misaligned. I should trust my gut and go with that.

Lan Doan

29:21Yeah, it's very interesting question. I think to me, again, it goes back to do I know why am I in it for? You know, what was the original reason? And be very honest about it, right? What was the original reason? And why is not there anymore? Now, if you feel like, you, yeah, again, this is... It's hard for someone else to do it for you. And then things just like the complete honesty with yourself is also very important. Is that, are you leaving it because you're scared? Are you leaving it because you're afraid of the feasibility part? Are you leaving it because something else rather than the vision of it? So if the vision of the success is still resonant with you, but you're leaving it, there's, it's not a value alignment. It's the problem with other things, right? Your self, your limiting belief, your lack of self-discipline, your fear. But yeah, if you feel like this vision of your success is no longer resonant with you. Then that's a sign. But again, had to be very, very honest. I think, you know, just like an example of like... Being the hardest worker and the most successful, achieving the most in anywhere, in any team that I was at.

30:46It's just something that feels very resonant to me. Gives me energy. Whenever I'm tired, I just think about it. That number one person who outworks everyone else, [unclear], which is great. And at some point, just somewhere in my mind, I was like, wanna have a family. I wanna go home to my child. I wanna go home to my husband. Just wanna, yeah. And then just like somehow that image got replaced. And yeah, and then for me, now the drive is not like, I'll outwork everyone, right? It's no longer, it's no longer. Sparkling is no longer something that I just like, I have that image and I just got that push. I have the image of like at the end of the day, like I came home tired, but fulfilled about what I did and I was able to spend like undisturbed, like totally focused time with my family. It just feel, yeah, it just feel right. So then, you know, when I'm tired, when I got distracted and I was like, and you know. I just remind myself that image. And then I was like, okay, I worked really hard, really focused on this time during the day so I can go home, like not having to think about work, feeling like I've done the best I could. And I'm able to spend undisturbed time with the people that I care about.

32:03And that, that gives me energy. So that's a bit different from like, you still have that image. It's still motivating you, but you just like. It's hard, somehow you realize, it's really hard to outsmart or outwork everyone, you're like, I give up on it. You know, that's a different drivers.

Quang Do

32:20I think, and that's a beautiful sharing. Think the thing most people struggle with is not having really that clarity between what is the better choice. So the options are often not so clear in terms of what is more favorable. And then it's coupled with that feeling of not really being sure what we really want, especially if you're earlier in your career. If we take that analogy with dating, it's similar. I think most relationships that are sort of more mediocre, there are factors that are not good that we don't like but there are factors that we do like and then you always fall in this spectrum in the middle and it's very hard to make a clear and determined and informed decision and I think with careers it's the very same thing right.

Lan Doan

33:05Is. It is. No, I think, I think sometimes, I'm one of, probably one of helpful things to do is to separate what you want versus whether it's feasible for you to get there. So a lot of times people identify what they want. They think too fast. They add in the feasibility. Like, can I get it? I want something, but they either like change that post, that goal post because they think. They already put in the factors of how. I mean, I similar to dating, it's like maybe you want, but you're like, realistically, you know, so I just like, know, so that make it even harder, right? And then in strategy and problem solving, you should separate those two. Obviously it's an iteration process, right? Like no one, you know, but then try not to. Try not to mingle with those, try to identify what you want first. You can always put in the how later on, like, you know, no one stops you from doing it, but don't do it all at the same time because then it becomes too many constraints, too many factors, and it blur your view. So like even strategy building, where you start with setting goals and then you're like, okay, you know, this is something that matters. Users have to break it down to small the problem rather than try to solve all at once.

34:23So yeah, I think it's probably the hard one of the hardest also for people to do is just like be honest and just focus first about what they want before adding in the layers of can I get it, how hard it is to get it, is it practical? It's just two steps.

Quang Do

34:38You shared a lot of good advice, Lan, I think. And zooming out, is there in your long career anything that you wish you had known earlier when you started your career? Now looking back.

Lan Doan

34:51It might feel a little like unrelated, but actually I feel like I could just enjoy the process a bit more. I mean, maybe you've heard, right? Like I'm very like, at some point I became really structured about, you know, the target, how I'm doing there, the strategy and stuff. Like, I think now at this point I'm still learning to... To enjoy it and make it sweet, make it fun a bit more. I'm not sure if this would have helped. I think maybe being me, I think I just have to go through that process of being hyper-focused, hyper-rational even about my career to appreciate the fact that I could. Also smell the rose a little more on the way. Think that's also just the difference in the values. But at this point, think, yeah, if there is a better way to balance it, I would try.

Quang Do

35:45We just say you didn't enjoy the process so much back then. And why?

Lan Doan

35:50Yeah, it's true. It's not like I didn't enjoy the process. I probably just appreciate the difficult patch more. I think now, like even now when I went through the difficult patches, I have the confidence in me that say, I'll pass. I'll figure a way out. But I think back then, like if I was lost, I felt really lost. I felt really hopeless. I felt freaked out, right? And no one told me that it's gonna be okay. And even when people told me it would be okay, I'll be like, know, you're lying, what do know? Yeah, so, yeah, it's probably just freak out less and trust process. Trust myself and probably trust. The support system that I have even more.

Quang Do

36:35Cool, so before we wrap up, tell us a bit more about your coaching and what kind of coaching is it and what kind of goals do we have with your coaching business and your coaching services.

Lan Doan

36:48Yeah, well thanks for asking. So now I focus a lot on executive and career coaching. Because yeah, I went through periods of being lost myself. And I've seen it a lot with my own team members and with lots of people around me. As I say, sometimes those periods, you just have to go through those. You just have to go through heartbreak sometimes to appreciate a good relationship. What I was hoping for is to provide a certain framework, a certain way of doing, a way of thinking, some knowledge for people so that they probably enjoy those difficult patches a bit more. Learn the most they could from those and make the best out of their path. I offer one-on-one coaching, group training.

Quang Do

37:40Do you target more Vietnamese or is it more agnostic and open?

Lan Doan

37:43So now I think I'm targeting like the language most likely to be in English. It probably doesn't matter the nationality. I think we start with people who certainly has a high motivation to figure things out, open to self-learn. There's a lot of self-learn, self-reflection factors in this. So as we shared before, you do need a little data to self-learn, to self-reflect. And then people who... Who's really want to get to the next level, like change their way of doing, change their mindset. Exploring a new way to structure how you've been approaching it. I think those is probably the most relevant group of people that I am targeting for the next product and obviously is hoping to expand it to be. Relevant and helpful to more people later on.

Quang Do

38:38Very exciting. I look forward to following along that journey and see how it goes. To wrap up, Lan, how can our members connect with you and follow your work?

Lan Doan

38:48I guess LinkedIn is the easiest option. Yeah, and like I'd love to hear, I love to hear from people. I think I try to reflect a lot about my journey, right? So I just try to remember who I was, right? When I was just out of college or three years out, what, I see exactly the question you asked, like what caused the transformation? How I felt, what was the hardest thing? What I wish I knew. But I would love to hear more from people so that I can empathize and understand better what would be most relevant for them.

Quang Do

39:21I love that. Thank you, Lan. Thank you so much for joining today and keep in touch. All right.

Lan Doan

39:30All right, bye.

Quang Do

39:31That's it for today. If you enjoyed this, you will love the OV community. Learn more at overseasvietnamese.com.