Journey to Boston Consulting Group.

Kieu My Dang

0:00Every time I managed to do something, I'm like, "Oh, it's because I over-prepped." And so having more achievements doesn't really help my imposter syndrome. It just dragged it along. That's when I started to cherish even more those connections. And that's how in parallel I also built my Vietnamese identity in a stronger way, where I chose the things that I liked more about Vietnam and I chose the things that I liked more about Western culture. I was doing this really intensive prep school in France and it was really hard and I was very stressed, and my parents started to be like, "You could quit if you want. You don't need to always strive so hard." And I was like, "I can't. You built me this way for 18 years and now you're telling me to quit? Like, how?"

Quang Do

0:48Kieu My, I'm very excited to be chatting with you today. We've been connected for a while, talked here and there a bit, but I'm very curious to learn a bit more officially from you and also share this with the wider OV audience. So thanks for being on the podcast. Why don't you give us a quick introduction about yourself?

Kieu My Dang

1:10Thanks a lot for having me. Of course, I'm saying hi remotely to all our audience in OV. So I was born in Vietnam, then I grew up in Switzerland for 10 years because my dad was working in diplomacy at the time. Then I spent 2 and a half years in Vietnam for my high school before going to France to study. So I've been here for 10 years now. In between, I spent 1 year in New York, 6 months in London for work. So yeah, I've been moving quite a lot. I'm working at BCG now and it's also making me move a lot for my work. So yeah, that's a bit about me. Thanks.

Quang Do

2:02And I hear multiple countries, probably cultural influences, mainly 3: probably Swiss, Vietnamese, French. How is that for you? In the sense, how do you define your own identity? Would you say you grew up mainly Vietnamese, or what's the strongest influence for you?

Kieu My Dang

2:23Yeah, I think that's a very interesting question, because I've asked myself that question, I think, almost my entire life. 'Cause when I went to Switzerland, of course I was fully Vietnamese at the time, right? I was 6 and it was the only language I knew at the time. And for 10 years, of course, I built that kind of Swiss identity, because I was going to the Swiss school, et cetera. And I arrived at a moment when I was a teenager, went to Vietnam, where I was almost avoiding that identity, because I wanted to fit in wherever I was, which was in the West. So I kind of didn't want to be Vietnamese. And I had my dad at the time who, as far back as I can remember, always told me, "You will be Vietnamese. You will be a Vietnamese person wherever you go. You will be Vietnamese, and nobody can take that from you." And at the time it made me a little bit frustrated, because it's something that I cannot choose. Because, you know, as a teenager I wanted to be a Western girl. And then I arrived in Vietnam, spent 2 and a half years there and learned, as a teenager trying to become an adult, to build my liking, my love for my Vietnamese identity as well. And then as I moved to France for 10 years, I felt like progressively I've become more and more Vietnamese, which was very weird because I was far from Vietnam for 10 years. But I think that's also because, as I grew up, I understood more what my dad was saying: "You will be Vietnamese wherever you go and nobody can take that from you." And as I built my French identity, I also built my Vietnamese identity, kind of in opposition. I chose the things that I liked more about Vietnam. I saw the things that I didn't like about French culture and that I preferred in Vietnamese culture. So now whenever people ask me, "Where are you from?" I would just say Vietnam for the short version, and then I would explain that I also grew up in Switzerland and in France and blah, blah, blah.

Quang Do

4:34And just quickly on the small 2-year period in Vietnam you had, I think this was a time where you were young, meaning you were building your circles of friends, and all of a sudden you switched from Switzerland to Vietnam, which is a completely different world. You made friends during those 2 years and then you switched back. How was it for little Kieu My, those transitions?

Kieu My Dang

4:59Yeah, I think that was really hard, because, especially as a teenager, you're so attached to your friends and to your environment, because you're also building your identity and building your personality. It was very hard at the time. I cried a lot, and, you know, it was the drama of my life, like my life was ending. But I made a lot of friends in Vietnam in the French high school and they are now my best friends. We've been far from each other for 10 years, because each person kind of went to another country. And I think that they resonated with me in a way that I couldn't even see before, because they also had that dual identity thing. They were also Vietnamese but went to the French high school, so they also had that Western influence.

Quang Do

5:49And did you grow up bilingual with French? So was it French Swiss?

Kieu My Dang

5:53Yes, yes, yes. So when I was a kid growing up in Switzerland, my parents forced me to do Vietnamese. I was basically bi-schooling. So I was going to the Swiss school, and then I was following the entire program in the Vietnamese program. I was doing math, literature, history, everything in Vietnamese at home.

Quang Do

6:17But who taught you? Your parents?

Kieu My Dang

6:19Oh, my parents, yeah.

Quang Do

6:21Oh wow, okay.

Kieu My Dang

6:22My parents, they were making me do math and everything in Vietnamese at home. So then I was finishing my homework and then I had another set of homework that I was doing. They were very diligent. And every weekend, I remember, it was like a school day. I mean, there was the weekend, but there was always, I think, Sunday, where the entire day was doing more stuff than the other days. And that, I think, really contributed to building a real dual identity as well, because I had 2 separate schools and 2 separate languages and 2 separate math and all those things. And yeah, I'm infinitely grateful to my parents for having done that, because, oh my God, it's so much time invested.

Quang Do

7:11Yes, and it sounds like they were quite intentional and diligent then. And you went on to join institutions like BCG, and I would just be curious to know, and BCG is hyper-competitive to get in, especially in Europe, and I would love to know: do you think that drive of yours to succeed in your career, especially in this more traditional way, has been driven by your parents, and they planted the seed? Or do you think your environment and your friends back in the day also influenced that?

Kieu My Dang

7:49I think that, as my parents invested so much time in my education, and as they were also, as you say, very intentional in the way that they built my personality or whatever, that really had a big influence. And I think that they still have a big influence now, in the sense that even though they don't work at BCG, I still tell them a lot about what I do and how it's hard or, you know, how it's interesting. I remember when I was 6, I arrived at school and it was really hard, right? I didn't speak the language, nothing. I was just arriving. I still have that image of me when I was 6. It was the first day of school, I was going into the classroom and I couldn't speak. I felt like I couldn't speak and I couldn't hear. And then about the excellence part, I think that starting from grade 3, I still remember a day where I went to my mom and I was like, "Mom, I understand them." I understood everything almost, that day. And she was like, "Oh wow, congratulations." And then I started having really good grades. From grade 3, I started to be second, first of the class. And I think that maybe that entire frustration built up for 2 years, or 2 and a half years, and then at some point I suddenly felt like I could do stuff, that I could communicate, that I could have good grades. And from then on, I always had really good grades. And of course my parents insisted for me to have good grades and to work hard, and I think that it kept going on. And I remember when I was 18, I was doing this really intensive prep school in France, which was the way to go into the top schools, and it was really hard and I was very stressed, and my parents started to be like, "You could quit if you want. You don't need to always strive so hard." And I was like, "I can't. You built me this way for 18 years and now you're telling me to quit? Like, how?" So then I just pushed through. After the first year, I pushed through and then went to HEC. And so I think that my parents progressively started to become more of a calming force from when I was 18, but it was kind of too late.

Quang Do

10:11Beautiful. And, you know, I say beautiful because I think it's a beautiful immigrant story there. And just to go a bit deeper on your upbringing, growing up in France, what was that time like for you, being basically a Vietnamese immigrant in France, working hard? What were the parts that you enjoyed, and what made you become who you are today?

Kieu My Dang

10:38So in France, when I was 18, I was doing this really intensive thing for 2 years, so I felt like I was living almost not really in France at the time. I was more like living in my school. And I think that those 2 years were especially hard, because I felt for the first time how hard it was to have my parents so far, because it was also the first time I was living 10,000 km from my parents. And it was very intense, and all my classmates had their parents around. Some were living with their parents and some could go to their parents for every holiday or every weekend. And so I felt how disadvantaged I was compared to the others. But I think that it's a situation that every student going abroad to study has, right? And a lot of Vietnamese students, I think I saw the stats, it's an incredible amount of people going to study abroad compared to the GDP that we have. And so I felt that really hard, how I was disadvantaged compared to the other people. I started building my French identity when I started HEC, so after the 2 years. And I think that it was very natural, because I had grown up in Switzerland before and then I did the French high school, so it was very natural. But then, for I think 6 years, I didn't see my Vietnamese friends too much, because I really started to want to fit in and to do all the activities that we had at HEC, to have new friends and all those things. But then after I graduated, or even towards the end, I started to really feel that I want to go back to Vietnam at some point, to be closer to my parents. And I also started to feel the differences that I preferred in Vietnamese culture, like the sense of family, that the family is so important for us, or the entrepreneurial spirit as well. I think it's very Vietnamese. So all those things I started to feel way more with my closest friends from high school. And so, of course I maintained communication, I talk to them regularly, but that's when I started to cherish even more those connections. And that's how in parallel I also built my Vietnamese identity in a stronger way, where I chose the things that I liked more about Vietnam and I chose the things that I liked more about Western culture.

Quang Do

13:39And was BCG your first job out of school?

Kieu My Dang

13:43Yes, I mean, it was my first job out of school, but I also did 1 year of internships before that, so it was not really my first job. And I chose it in opposition to something else.

Quang Do

13:55Would love to learn more about that journey, of when that goal crystallized and you were becoming determined to do consulting. How was the journey for you?

Kieu My Dang

14:07Yeah, so that was long. So my dad wanted me to do finance, again, influence of my parents. When I started looking for my internships, I was like, "Yeah, I absolutely need to do finance, because it's super well paid and my dad tells me that it's the best thing to do," blah, blah, blah. So then I did almost all my internships in finance, except one, which was in influencer marketing. But anyway, so I spent my entire gap year doing finance, working at EY in transaction services and then working at a small private equity firm in New York. And then I did a small case team assistant job, 3 weeks at BCG Vietnam, and suddenly I was like, "Wow, this is so intense, but this is so fun. I actually like this." And so I put into my head that I wanted to do consulting when I graduated. But then I still had 1 year of school, and at that time I had already chosen finance as my major, because my dad had told me, "You have to do finance." I wanted to major in entrepreneurship at first, and my dad was like, "What do you mean, entrepreneurship? What are you going to do? What are you going to learn there?" And in parallel I was preparing for all the cases to go into consulting. I liked it more than the classes. I was looking forward to going out of the class so that I could go case with my friends. So I just spent a lot of time casing, really liked it, so it reinforced that I wanted to go into BCG. And then I got into BCG, and actually I still had another internship at the end. So I went to intern at Blackstone in London, and they were paying me really well, and they gave me a return offer. And it was so hard. I think it was 2 months where I was like, "What should I do?" Because it was Paris BCG and Blackstone London. It was huge money in London versus, of course, good pay, but not as good as Blackstone. It was my parents telling me that finance was the best thing to do. And, oh, by the way, I wanted to become a banker from when I was 8, so it was very ingrained.

Quang Do

16:298?

Kieu My Dang

16:29Yeah, 8 years old. I went to my parents and said, "I want to become a banker." Like, what do you mean? I'm not even sure I knew what bank meant at the time, but it was just this very flashy thing in Switzerland, I think. And on the other side, a career path that I think my parents didn't really understand as well, that not many people understand in general, because I think what we are doing is very broad. I was very lucky to have that choice in the first place. It was COVID at the time. A lot of people were not even getting an offer. And so I was very lucky, and I understood that luck that I had, so I didn't want to waste it, you know. But then I chose BCG, because I figured out that I liked the internship I did at BCG more than the internship I did in New York. I figured that I loved learning, and that BCG was all about learning, because every time you go on a case, every 2 months, you're learning about a new topic, new industry, new people, new company. And I also liked the fact that we could move for our job, that we had the possibility to go to other places. And I think that comes from the fact that, of course, my dad was a diplomat in Switzerland, but he also moved a lot. I remember South America at some point, and then Northern Europe, et cetera. And I guess that I always grew up looking up to the stories he was telling a lot, and I think that also, underground, drove me towards that.

Quang Do

18:09Super interesting. I think there are no really wrong choices between the two in some way, and it's a luxury to have 2 options. And, you know, I'm sure if you're that kind of person, then you would have succeeded in any option. But I would be curious, you know, was getting the offers and getting into those companies something that was easy for you, or not too difficult? What was the journey like for you? And, you know, you compete with such type-A people. What was it like for you?

Kieu My Dang

18:43I'll talk about maybe Blackstone first and then BCG, but I think there are some elements from Blackstone that are replicable as well. Actually, I didn't even apply to Blackstone, because I thought that I was not good enough. I still have, I think, still now, and a lot of women, I think, especially women of color, I had such a huge imposter syndrome. I remember going to the finance fair at our school, and I didn't even go to the Blackstone stand. I didn't even go meet the people, because I felt like I was not good enough, because I felt like you needed to be more intelligent or more aggressive or more whatever to be there. And I remember all the guys from my class, of course, they went there to meet the people. I didn't even dare go. And then after the finance fair, we still gave our CV into a CV book, and then our school sent the CV book to all the companies that were there. So I still made my CV like everyone, and then I gave it, and then 2 weeks after the fair, the HR from Blackstone contacted me, and she was like, "Oh, we saw that you had a real estate experience in New York. We think that this role might fit you. Do you want to interview?" I was like, "I mean, what? Of course." If Blackstone tells me to interview, I would take the chance. And I just worked really hard. I remember people telling me, "You should do 50 cases in order to get into those companies." Some people told me 70. I was like, "Okay, I'm going to fix myself 70 minimum." And in the end, I think I did like 120 cases, live cases with people.

Quang Do

20:29Okay.

Kieu My Dang

20:30And each case lasts about an hour and a half to 2 hours, because you give feedback to the person as well. So yeah, I did 120 live cases, and then I also studied, took a course, whatever. So it was not easy. It was not easy. Some people were telling me, "Yeah, I got an offer after 5 cases." I was like, "No, this is not me. I'm going to over-prep." I also over-prepped because it was COVID. The day of my first BCG interview was also the day that our president called for the lockdown. So then it got cancelled. It was March 2020, I think. So then I pushed my interview to December, so then I had another 9 months. So it wasn't really purposefully that I did so many cases, but it worked out in the end.

Quang Do

21:29Very interesting. Sounds very intense. Now, having worked a few years in consulting, do you think you've become less, the same, or more intense? And did the work become more intense, or have you, you know, built your own ways of becoming more effective and more leveraged, perhaps?

Kieu My Dang

21:55Yeah, I mean, I'm just before the manager level. So it's the level where you're supposed to be knowing what you're doing. It's been 2 years, 3 years, you've been doing more or less the same thing. And it's also supposed to be the moment where you get a little bit more work-life balance. But I haven't really seen it, because, you know, when you know more, when you can do more, then people will give you more. It's always like that. So no, it has not gotten less intense. I think that the last project that I did was the most intense, but also the most pressuring one, the most stressful one that I had, because I had more responsibility and because we had to deliver, and it was very innovative. It was in GenAI, so we had never done that before. So it was very stressful. So no, it has not gotten less intense. It's still as interesting. I still feel like every time I go on a project, I get this new adrenaline of, "Oh, I'm going to learn a new thing. It's so interesting." I still get the stress as well of, "Oh my God, can I do this? Am I at the right place?" You know, imposter syndrome coming back all the time. And every time it still goes well, it still goes very well at the end. But I think that it's a bit inherent to the job, because if you think about it, it's very hard to learn about a brand new industry, function, company in such a short amount of time. Week 1, you're trying to ramp up, but you're also supposed to start going in front of the client and say stuff as well. It's not like they just put you in a room and you can just learn everything. No, you also have to learn a lot on the job. And so it's just inherent to the job that it's very intense and it's very hard. And I haven't really found someone yet that would have told me that it was not intense and that it was easy.

Quang Do

24:08And then on the more mental or more psychological side of things, you mentioned imposter, but you've been doing this for a while now, and I think you've been intense throughout your life. Do you think, even though your physical and execution side is as intense and as effective, you're more relaxed mentally as you get older, and replaced the imposter with real confidence over time? Or is the level of insecurity or imposter still the same?

Kieu My Dang

24:43So for sure, I'm less stressed than when I was 18 and when I was 20. I'm way more grounded, thank God, because I would not have managed BCG otherwise. And BCG has also, as you say, confronted me with my weaknesses. And I think that's why it's also a very good school. They call it a school for your career, because you're doing so much intense stuff and because you're always being analyzed. After every project, they analyze you on like 20 dimensions and they grade you from 1 to 5, and they write stuff about you. And then every 6 months you have a performance review, where they look at that with a magnifying glass. And as well, it pushes you to look at yourself with the magnifying glass. And so yes, it has really confronted me with my weaknesses. And I think that it's hard, but it's also the best way to evolve. They gave me a coach, a personal coach, to work with on that.

Quang Do

25:55Okay, can you share a bit about the coaching? How did he or she develop your confidence?

Kieu My Dang

26:02I specifically told the coaching company that I wanted someone to work on the symptoms but also on the root causes. What I know is that on Tuesday we're going to do 2 hours where I'm going to do my lifeline. So I'm going to tell her basically all the things that I think have shaped me into the person that I am and that contributed to my imposter syndrome. And then I know that her method is that she will do kind of a psychoanalysis kind of thing, because what she said is that sometimes, you know, you just tell yourself a story. You tell yourself that you have imposter syndrome. But is it really imposter syndrome, or is it imposter syndrome only in certain situations? And so rephrasing your story into, "I have imposter syndrome, for instance, when I'm working in oil and gas, but I don't have imposter syndrome when I work in marketing," that already can shape your brain. Just changing your story about yourself can also change the way that you actually behave. So that's what I know about her method, and I took her especially because of that "telling yourself a story" thing. I found that very interesting. So that's her method. Otherwise, I think that a lot of journaling has helped me a lot. And meditation as well, I meditate a lot. Yoga gives me confidence. And also just really focusing on what we are good at. I think that every human being is kind of like, if you're a square, you cannot fit into a round thing. And so because you're constantly trying to fit into something, you cannot have self-confidence, because self-confidence is first knowing that I am a unique person, and knowing that I have this unique set of skills, and just being confident about them. Because I have a lot of people tell me, "Oh, but how can you still have imposter syndrome? You went to the hardest prépa in France and then you went to the best business school in France and then you went to BCG. How can you have imposter syndrome?" And I'm like, "Yeah, but the thing is that because I'm very much over-prepping stuff, every time I manage to do something, I'm like, 'Oh, it's because I over-prepped.'" And so having more achievements doesn't really help my imposter syndrome. It just drags it along, it just drags it on. And you can also say that my imposter syndrome pushes me to be very hardworking, to be very diligent, and so it gives me those achievements. So it's also a positive thing. But I think that arriving at 28, I'm like, "Okay, so this is now the work of the year." And it's been the work of 2024. It will be the work of at least H1 2025.

Quang Do

29:03Very candid sharing. And I think it's very interesting, and to me personally, you know, fascinating to talk about imposter syndrome, because I do see a lot of high-performing people having that. And the question that I ask myself is often: you have that imposter syndrome, but you still achieve things. So there's clearly this gap, that you still do things despite having those doubts, right? And so my next question would really be, how do you bridge that? You know, even if you're not too confident, how do you still follow through? You mentioned, I think, yoga, meditation. Is there some mental model? How do you cope with stress and those moments where you have doubts?

Kieu My Dang

29:52I think that I'm very disciplined with myself, because my parents were really disciplined with me. So once I have a goal in mind, I know the different stuff. I put my brain into putting the different stuff together, and then when I'm in execution mode, I don't really have that emotional side anymore. And actually, I just realized it now, it's true that it helps to just burst out the emotion and to put it to the side. As long as you know that it's your way of coping with things, it's fine, right?

Quang Do

30:24And is this still ongoing? Is this today still the case?

Kieu My Dang

30:27Yeah, I detach myself way more from that. And I think that this work with self-confidence, with putting aside imposter syndrome, is going to help as well, to just be really confident about the things that I can do, and looking at my capacity in a more objective way.

Quang Do

30:47I love this conversation, by the way, and very honest sharing and vulnerable, which is, you know, really the magic of such conversations. And I would love to go a bit deeper into, you know, your day-to-day and your life. How do you structure your stressful, intense life, you know? And what are some of the routines or perhaps systems you've built for yourself to execute effectively through the day?

Kieu My Dang

31:15Work-life balance is a really big thing in consulting. During the first year and a half, I was just waking up very early at 7, doing yoga for 20, 30 minutes, and that was my way of telling myself that I had that work-life balance, as in I would fit life in front, just before work. Because in the evening, I didn't dare to do anything. I was just letting the thing rule my life. And now, after 2 years, I started to change my way of doing things. So I started to put into the calendar of my manager, "Okay, this is the moment I do yoga on Tuesday evening." And unless we have huge emergencies, like a SteerCo, the big meeting, the next day, then I would go to yoga for 1 hour, I would eat, blah, blah, blah, and then I would reconnect after that if it's necessary. And then on Thursday, I would have my off night, where I would be doing stuff with my friends. So then I just know that that day, everyone is aligned on that. And of course it depends on the project, because sometimes it's doable, and it depends on the manager, because some people respect that more than others. But I think that putting my boundaries more is a good thing. And now I also say when I feel like it's too much, or that I feel like there's stuff to be done. Also because I'm way less, I let it rule my life way less now.

Quang Do

32:47Now, looking back, Kieu My, you just described the periods of intensity and stress. Is there something you would tell your younger self to do differently? Or would you do anything differently, in a way that, you know, might be a bit less toxic or a bit less intense? Or was this sort of the recipe, or just the way you do it?

Kieu My Dang

33:16I think that there's no recipe, and I think that all the experiences and all the mistakes and all the road bumps in the way always shape us into whoever we are. Without even one tiny thing that we are unconscious about, maybe we would act slightly differently today. And also, I mean, I went to a yoga class the other day, and my yoga teacher was saying that there's this god in Hinduism where they say that it's the god of obstacles, but it's also the god of taking out the obstacles. And I found that very interesting, that duality. It's like, in order to sometimes even realize that you have imposter syndrome, you need to go through all these really hard steps to actually tell yourself, "Oh, I actually need to face that at some point." There actually needs to be an obstacle in my way so that I can learn about it. I don't think that I had the best recipe for anything. I'm very much more a person who looks forward than backwards, and I think that I wouldn't even know, actually, what I could do differently. Maybe I could say, "Try to work on your self-confidence earlier. Try to find yourself, find who you are and what your strengths are, way earlier." But I did ask myself all those questions. It's just that I didn't have the experiences at the time in order to even answer those questions in the first place. So I don't think that I could have done things differently.

Quang Do

34:52Cool. I love, you know, the way you still seem very positive about everything, and it seems to be, you know, taking time for things like this, and I really appreciate that. If you look a bit forward, you know, you've been in consulting for a while, and I'm not sure how much you can share based on your current employment, but any ideas for future adventures and next steps, or later next steps?

Kieu My Dang

35:22So the end goal, the big, big goal, is still to go back to Vietnam. It's being pushed a little bit, for a couple years. I was supposed to be in Vietnam already now, but, a few personal things. So then I'm going to transfer, I mean, I'm asking for a transfer to another European city, because I just want to spend a bit more time in Europe. And as well, I think that one of the big goals I've been having in my Trello for my life has been to build my YouTube channel back, or to invest more in my podcast. But I think that when I'm working, it's just really demanding, and so having the energy to edit, write scripts and all those things, it takes energy. And sometimes on the weekend, when you're working so hard during the week, it's just like, "Oh, I just want to chill. I just want to have coffee and kind of enjoy the present moment." And it's not that writing the script is not enjoying the present moment, but it's just really demanding in terms of energy. So those are my 2 things: moving back to Vietnam, and then maybe doing my side things.

Quang Do

36:35I'm sure a lot of people would love to listen to your stuff, especially our people from OV, after listening to this, especially having seen a very candid side of you. If you would move to Vietnam, would this still be consulting, or do you also...?

Kieu My Dang

36:50It depends, I think, on the opportunities. If I find that the types of projects that we are doing in Vietnam are very aligned to my experience. Because I'm also starting to specialize right now, going with this imposter syndrome thing. I'm trying to find the things that I'm interested in. I'm trying to specialize within some practice areas at BCG, because I've been a generalist until now. I've done really different things. And by the way, for people who go into consulting, I learned so much doing so many different things, but I also put myself in those situations where I felt that imposter syndrome way more. Because actually a lot of people, they go into BCG, they're like, "Yeah, I'm going to do everything," but then after 1 year they're like, "Oh, I'm going to only do due diligence," or "I'm only going to do oil and gas," or "I'm only going to do whatever." And doing things repeatedly helps you to build your self-confidence and your sense of legitimacy on that topic. Well, I was not like that. I was just doing everything, because I was like, "Oh, I want to learn about everything." And so I put myself in the difficult situation as well. Would I have done things differently? No, because I think that it was very enriching, and it was what I went there for. So I wouldn't have done things differently. But now, knowing all of that, I'm like, "Okay, it's enough. We're stopping learning a little bit of everything. We're going to start learning a lot about something." So I think that is the immediate step, going with the move maybe to Amsterdam, and then trying to go back to Vietnam with that specialty in mind. I'll see if there are opportunities.

Quang Do

38:41Awesome. I would be very excited to have more people like you in Vietnam, and to, you know, build and gather a bit of a BCG and returning community here and try to do stuff here. And more and more people are coming, so it's always very positive for me to hear more intent, at least letters of intent, to come. Hope it works out.

Kieu My Dang

39:03Yes. And so many are very entrepreneurial. I think that's very interesting as well, all these young people going and building stuff. It sounds so, wow, interesting.

Quang Do

39:15Yes. And my point of view on this is, I think it's partly out of necessity as well. I don't think Vietnam's employment market provides the same structure and opportunities as elsewhere, and so one of the prime options is basically building a business here. And I think that's where the most excitement and also the most opportunity lies. And so that's why many people choose this path, also because perhaps the alternatives are not, you know, the same as in Paris or London or New York as of now.

Kieu My Dang

39:50Yeah, but maybe some people will build something that's so great that then other people will want to move back to work for that thing.

Quang Do

39:59Yeah, that's the goal. Look, I've asked you before what you would advise your younger self, and I would perhaps double-click on that a little bit, but perhaps abstracting more: if there are perhaps OV women early in their studies who would love to aspire to a similar career to you, what would you tell them? It doesn't even have to be advice. But what would you tell them? And perhaps it's easier to envision your younger self. What would you tell 21-year-old Kieu My?

Kieu My Dang

40:37I would definitely say, just keep pushing. Just keep being very hardworking and pushing, because things pay off. And also the second thing is that when things are meant to be, they will just click in a very natural way. You have to be hardworking and you have to be diligent in whatever you do, but the second thing is that you also have to accept that there are some outcomes. If it's not meant to be, then it will not be. And if you feel like you're hitting against the wall, just stop and just go another way. That's 2. I think 3 is be very reflective about your experience. I have a notebook for my emotions, a personal life kind of thing, and then I have a notebook for my career, and I write after every one of my projects what I liked, what I didn't like, what I was good at and all those things. So I tried to really reflect on my experience so that I could extract stuff, especially after 3 years: what I have learned, where am I good at naturally. And so be very reflective. Journal about your career and about your personal life. And the fourth thing is, I think that also helps to build the last thing, which is self-confidence. I think that as a woman of color, as a Vietnamese, generally Vietnamese people are very hardworking, and Vietnamese girls, when they grow up, their parents put a lot. And I'm not saying that Vietnamese boys do not have pressure, but I think that Vietnamese girls have this double pressure. You have to be very hardworking, especially when you're an immigrant, et cetera. Then your parents want you to have a better future, so they put a lot of investment into your career. They are very hardworking themselves so that you could have a better future. And then the second thing is, as a Vietnamese woman, you're also expected to know how to manage your family, to know how to cook, to be pretty, and all those things. And you also have to question yourself and be humble. And no, no, no, no, it's a lot of stuff. And I think that, do not forget in all of that to build your self-confidence in who you are, what you're good at, and really focusing on those things that nobody can take from you.

Quang Do

43:13I love that. I was about to end, but I need to ask: what does your journaling process look like? When did you start, at what age? And is it pen and paper, is it laptop?

Kieu My Dang

43:28It's only paper for now, but I'm about to buy a reMarkable, because I have like 10 notebooks. I started when I was 6.

Quang Do

43:37Wow, so early. And then consistent until today?

Kieu My Dang

43:41Not really consistent, because I did it from 6 to maybe when I was a teenager, and then I stopped for a couple years, and then I did it consistently for 1 or 2 years when I was a teenager. And then when I was in prépa, I didn't journal at all. And then I started again in 2019, so I was 23, and it has been really consistent until now. And it's not like every day I have to write something. At first, it was, when I was a kid, it was more descriptive. It was more me trying to tell whatever was happening, whatever was going through my mind. And now it's way more me describing and analyzing my own feelings. So it's like, why do I feel the way that I feel? And then I just dig into the whys very, very deep, and I try to make connections with my past, the stuff that happened, blah, blah, blah. And the career thing is a separate thing. So I write after every project, I write after every internship, and I ask all these questions, classic ones. When I do my coaching, I write a lot as well. I prep my coaching sessions, like, "Oh, when I'm 80, what would I want my 80-year-old self to say about whatever my life is?" Or trying to think about what I'm good at, and that evolves as well. So I try to do that every year, to take a step back and be like, "Okay," ask myself again that question of what am I good at, what do I think a good life is, what is my higher purpose. And the higher purpose thing, it's a very broad question, and so I think that it defines itself year after year.

Quang Do

45:31I'm asking because I'm journaling. I'm a fellow journaler as well, but mine is very... I do it every evening before sleeping, on my Apple Notes on my iPhone. And often there's no structure to it, but I would often release the thoughts that might still prevent me from sleeping, to just package it there, and then put my phone away and then go to sleep. And often it ends up to be almost a motivational note to myself of, you know, "You want to achieve this, and this is why you've got to get up tomorrow morning and give it your all." What's your time of the day to journal? And is it 15 minutes, is it 60 minutes? How intensely do you journal?

Kieu My Dang

46:15It's really... When I journal, it's usually for 15 minutes plus, because it's a psychoanalysis type of thing. It's bullet points. I think I'm very consultancy in my way of journaling. It's like why, what, how, or it's like why, why, why, why, why. And you have the bullet points, sub-bullet points, like that, and a lot of arrows making connections between stuff. But usually I meditate before I journal. I try to, so that I have that sense of extracting from my thoughts. I don't do it every day like you, so I think that's why it's more sporadic. It's like, "Oh, today I feel all these things and I want to understand why I feel all these things." So then I start journaling.

Quang Do

47:06And do you keep the entries and collect them and bind them, or do you throw them away?

Kieu My Dang

47:13No, no, I have a notebook for it. So every time I finish a notebook, then I would take another one. But now I hope that soon with a reMarkable I can just package them all digitally, because it's very hard to find stuff again, you know.

Quang Do

47:29Super interesting. We diverted a bit, but I think nonetheless there are many people journaling out there. And if not, I think, personally, it's a great way to reflect, or even it's just enjoyable as a process itself. It doesn't even have to be so much an outcome. It's just relaxing as well.

Kieu My Dang

47:45When did you start?

Quang Do

47:46I was on and off with it as well. I started 4 or 5 years ago, just before I moved to Singapore. So I lived in Singapore the last 3 years, and the move was quite a big one in terms of life change. And so I just started with a blank slate, blank sheet, coming to a new country, no one knowing me, and I could almost reinvent myself. And so I wanted to be intentional about that, and so I journaled there and just carried on that habit until today. And I just enjoy the process. Yeah, that's what I meant. Sometimes it doesn't even have any outcome or any specific purpose. It's just the 10 minutes that I have with myself and for myself, which is sometimes quite nice.

Kieu My Dang

48:29Yeah, I agree.

Quang Do

48:30Cool. Kieu My, thank you so much. How can our members and audience connect with you and follow your work?

Kieu My Dang

48:40Instagram, LinkedIn? I have all of the classic social media. And if they want to see my past self talking about how I got into consulting, there's my YouTube channel as well, where I was talking about that.

Quang Do

48:57Cool. What would they need to search in YouTube to find that?

Kieu My Dang

49:01Kiway. Kiway, yes.

Quang Do

49:04We'll try to link it after the recording. Thank you so much, Kieu My. It was wonderful speaking to you, and we keep in touch. And I hope to see you in Vietnam as well, either as a visitor or one day even as a resident and fellow neighbor.

Kieu My Dang

49:20Yes, 100%. Thanks a lot, Quang.

Quang Do

49:23That's it for today. If you enjoyed this, you will love the OV community. Learn more at overseasvietnamese.com.